(Another) help me find a new solo canoe

[Alan Gage]

On the Dead I got my first deep gouge on my Tranq - to but not through kevlar. I know its repairable but would like to avoid in future so my first pondering is kevlar lay-us with innegra

Maybe I'm missing something but I'd think that any composite layup would be just as susceptible to that type of damage as another. Since the kevlar wasn't punctured it apparently did its job well and only the resin was scratched. No matter what fabric your canoe was made of you still would have had a scratch that went down to the cloth. If you had a lesser or thinner fabric then perhaps it would have also gone through it. Like you said it's a simple and easy repair. As far as I'm concerned it's par for the course with any canoe that's used hard.

I'm not saying Kevlar is king but look how long it was the lightweight composite canoe layup and look around on the internet at how many failures and broken boats there were. Not many. I'm as guilty as any by getting carried away with chasing after something that's stronger but at some point strong enough is strong enough and anything more than that is overkill in terms of materials, weight, and money.

I didn't see any mention of running whitewater. If you're only doing flat water I'd think you should be able to get by with the lightest of layups.

Alan

 

[dschult2]

I own both a Swift Keewaydin 14 in pack setup and the Prospector 14 in the solo canoe setup (you can check out both canoes on my channel). Both in Kevlar fusion. Love them both for different reasons. The Keewaydin is awesome if its just me. It takes a little bit to get used to as the initial stability is not that great but the secondary stability is very good. That is why it's fast, you can turn on a dime and lean way over (lots of tumblehome). But I usually trip with my dog which is why I got the prospector. The prospector has great initial and secondary stability, can carry lots of gear and my dog comfortably, is still relatively fast, and has a surprising amount of tumblehome. Just don't expect to set any speed records or do pirouettes. Swift really hit it out of the park with this design. I have it setup with Swift's multiple height seat pod with kayak foot braces which in my opinion is far superior to the pack style seat (I know, Joe Robinet makes the pack boat look very trendy). The multiple height seat pods just gives you so many options. Bottom line, it's just easier on an old body. You can paddle it pack style with a seat back or traditional, single blade or double blade, sitting, kneeling, one or two leg out front, and gives you so much room to move your legs around. I find myself using the double blade in the upper seat position almost all the time, the boat is that stable. I can't say enough good things about this boat it's that good. However it's still a kevlar boat so best suited for flatwater. I am not familiar with Swift's expedition kevlar setup but from reading the description I would think it would handle the occasional class 1 fine but would be hesitant to bring it down class 2. If you really want to run a lot of class two I would look at a Nova Craft prospector 15 in Tuffstuff. A little heavier but can handle a little more abuse.

 

[billconner]

I liked that multiple height seat option when I tried it. Very useful to hear it has proven positive. Thanks. The swift Prospector with that seat in expedition layup is a definitely on the short list.

I obviously don't have that faster is better gene. Always the tortoise.

 

[Guest]

The paddler and gear weight/capacity is tough to judge since every manufacturer seems to have their own way of doing it.

The manufacturers stated weight capacity is a mishmash. Some, like Nova Craft, simply list a capacity number. Some, like Swift, list an “optimum load range” as well as an industry capacity. I have no idea how they arrive at an industry capacity; there isn’t even an industry standard for measuring rocker.

The most helpful, like Placid and NorthStar, list a displacement freeboard waterline at different burdens. And some, like Wenonah, do not list any capacity or recommended burden, explaining, quote:

“Even if you know how much weight you’ve put into the canoe, water in the bilge rapidly increases the load by an unknown amount”
“If loaded anywhere near it’s claimed limit a canoe may not be overloaded officially, but it will handle very poorly”.
“Waves or strong current call for an increased safety margin, hence less load”
“Paddler’s skills play a major role in what weight a canoe can transport safely”

That last quote could be amended to “Paddler’s skill and judgment”.

To expand on Wenonah’s explanation, I do not regularly weight myself and my gear load before a trip, and how the gear burden is loaded (trim) for conditions is equally important, especially if approaching the mysterious capacity number.

While my judgment is (usually) sound, no one is making how-to videos of my paddling skills, and like Bill I am typically a sitter, not a kneeler. When my judgment proves unwise and lake waves or rapids begin approaching the gunwales is right when I wish the canoe had more freeboard. It doesn’t take much water over the gunwales before things rapidly (pun) become increasingly slosh-around unwieldy.

Long way of saying that, if the mysterious capacity number is rated at 300lbs I would not put 300 lbs in the canoe.

Researching a new canoe purchase, without the difficult to arrange “test paddles”, can become an exercise in analysis paralysis. Sometimes you just need to define a best guess at your preferred criteria – boat length, depth, width, weight, capacity and materials – and pull the trigger on something from your short list.

 

[billconner]

Thank you Mike.

I like Hornbeck's:
Suggested Paddler Weight 110-300 lbs.
Capacity - Low: 275lbs. Mid: 325lbs.

And then GRB Newman"s:
Capacity: up to 250 lbs plus 50 lbs of gear

I had more confidence that Placid Boat Works actually measured because of displacement and waterline, which I assume is distance above the bottom - so a 4" waterline with 11" high at middle leaves 7" of freeboard?

Swifts's Optimum Load Range: 150 - 400 lbs Industry Capacity: 650 lbs led me to a bulletin board post that industry capacity is load with 6" of freeboard.

I looked at Northstar's loads etc. and I interpret that their optimal max load leaves about 9" of freeboard.

No magic (no pun or commercial intended) answer but interesting for some. For me less than 7-8" of freeboard seems unwise or at least uncomfortable. And I can't help but think seaton the bottom versus hung seat doesn't impact this judgement.

I agree with test paddling. Just this year if I wait till I can test paddle to order, I won't see canoe till after the 2021 season is over.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'm frankly confused about the topic and your objectives, Bill.

Are you looking for a shorter canoe, a more turnable canoe, a lighter canoe, a more capacious canoe, a floor seat or an elevated seat canoe, or a tougher canoe? Some of these characteristics are generally mutually exclusive, such as lightness and toughness. And all these questions seem to arise after three days on the flats of the Dead River and one day on the Oswegatchie.

You don't say what your current canoes are made of and what they weigh, but they seem like two fine canoes to me. You admit you only sit, don't lean, and are an intermediate paddler on your best days. I respectfully suggest that you could paddle the Dead or Oswegatchie just fine by concentrating on improving your paddling technique rather than searching for additional canoes.

All canoes turn by skidding the stern. This is facilitated in all canoes by learning to lean (heel) them onto their rockered chines, and perhaps also by pitching your weight somewhat forward in a turn, which is easier and more stably done when kneeling.

In addition, the most effective turning strokes for a river like the Oswegatchie generally are bow drawing and bow prying strokes, such as the on-side draw, the on-side bow jam (or pry or wedge) and the off-side cross-draw. The correlative heel for turning a flatwater canoe is usually an an off-side heel (carve turn, post turn), although in some hulls the on-side heel (pivot turn, axle turn) can be equally effective. If you don't know how to execute all these turns, or are not experienced with them, you may find your current canoes perfectly satisfactory turners when you do become proficient with these techniques. There are many courses and teachers of these techniques available, at least in non-Covid times.

As to hull material, you will have to go with composites if you want very light weight. I don't think the exact fabric matters much -- Kevlar, carbon, Innegra -- so long as the hull meets your weight and performance objectives. They are all pretty tough, but the fewer layers that are used to improve lightness will naturally reduce resistance to impacts and tears. However, with improved stroke technique, you will have greater ability to avoid impacts in the first place.

I'll finally add that if you want to go on very long canoe excursions, you will have to have a canoe with sufficient capacity. Personally, at your size and likely gear burden, I'd be looking at solo canoes in the 15'-16' range, which of course you already have.

 

[Guest]

For me less than 7-8" of freeboard seems unwise or at least uncomfortable. And I can't help but think seaton the bottom versus hung seat doesn't impact this judgement.

Except that to achieve 7-8” of freeboard with a 300+lb burden the canoe needs some depth. The shallowest standard seat solo canoes we currently own are around 11 inches deep at center. Even at 15 - 15 ½’ in length to achieve 8” of freeboard in those canoes I’d have to pack lighter than my current style.

Our old 10’ 6” Dagger Tupelo, more of a kid or small adult day paddling canoe, was only 9 ½” deep at center, and listed a 5” freeboard capacity at a mere 180lbs. Many of the current pack-style canoes are not much deeper; design-wise, sitting on the bottom, they can’t be to get a decent paddle stroke in the water.

You seem interested in pack-style canoes, and those have long history in Adirondack travel, from Nessmuk to current day. A pack style canoe would be a nice addition to your current 15’ 5” Tranquility and 17’ 3” Q17.

A number of friends use small pack-style canoes for Adirondack tripping, but they are mostly smaller, lighter weight friends, and all are UL packers. I appreciate the trips they undertake, but my food barrel alone weighs more than their entire kit.

To use a small pack-style canoe, even for calm water pond hopping trips, you may need to at least halve your gear weight.

 

[Cheeseandbeans]

I have used a 15’ Swift Prospector with adjustable seat in the ADKs for a couple years. I am 6’ 220lbs and carry a 50lbs pack. Not sure of freeboard, but always felt stable. I can single carry unless it is a real slog. Great canoe.

Bob

 

[billconner]

"I'm frankly confused about the topic and your objectives, Bill."

Thank you Glenn.

After 20 years of tripping in Q and BWCA in canoes designed for that water, I'm trying to learn what would be better for Adirondacks. The Q17 and Tranq are nearly flat bottom and near no rocker, and don't turn sharply for me, even improvising strokes that seem like the names you used. They are both lightweight kev laminates - all that SR does - and 44 and 34 pounds respectively.

I'm not interested in having my knees replaced and kneeling on my current knees is not an option.

I simply want to continue long excursions, but in this part of the country. I will consider the option of just driving to MN instead of paddling here.

Mike - Thank you - not sure I really am interested in a pack style. Im drawn to the Swift multi heigth seat. Still trying to get a grasp of the capacity issues.

​​​​​​​Cheese - Thank you! - Maybe I should have followed my first impulse and gotten the Prospector and not looked further.

 

[yknpdlr]

I used my 10.5' Hornbeck with my 195 pounds, and all the gear and food I needed for a week to traverse the Adirondacks via water, trail, and bushwhack from Boonville to end across Lake Champlain at Plattsburgh one hot dry July week. 185 miles total (including 62 combined miles of carries) paddling on a combination of many of the biggest lakes and smaller waterways to make the fully unsupported connection.

Yes, that boat was heavily loaded with me and gear, not much freeboard. But my prior experience had shown that if I center the weight as much as possible, food bag under my knees for example, and other heavy camping gear immediately behind my back, then minimal freeboard is not a problem. Lightly weighted on the ends, he bow and stern bob up and over waves, rather than cutting through. I also had a helpful home made spray cover that shed the occasional broadside splash. Only your own experience in various boats will tell you how it, and you, will perform and be happy.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

billconnor said:

After 20 years of tripping in Q and BWCA in canoes designed for that water, I'm trying to learn what would be better for Adirondacks.

I simply want to continue long excursions, but in this part of the country.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian, but I don't know what the significant difference is among these water venues. If you skip the whitewater in the Adirondacks, it's 90+% lake paddling just like BWCA. There are connecting streams, but the extremely serpentine examples such as the Oswegatchie and north branch of the Moose are not typical. I'd use the same canoe for extended tripping on all these lake waters and connecting streams -- my Hemlock SRT or, if I were under 180 lbs., my Bell Wildfire.

I know I wanted a lightweight canoe at age 35, even more so at 45, even more so at 55, even more so at 65, and even more so at 75. There seems to be a natural pattern there, and perhaps you sense the same one. Therefore, stick with a canoe under 40 pounds.

I also sense you want sufficient capacity for comfort and freeboard and that you may not be a small pack canoe guy, which are harder to get into and out of, by the way, especially for older folks with weak legs and knees.

I'm going to boil down your actual objective to this statement:

billconnor said:

The Q17 and Tranq are nearly flat bottom and near no rocker, and don't turn sharply for me . . . . Maybe I should have followed my first impulse and gotten the [Swift] Prospector [15] and not looked further.

Aside from the fact that flat bottoms don't necessarily affect turnability, rocker does. The Swift Propector 15 is a fine canoe I'm sure, but it has the same advertised rocker of 1" as your 15-5 Souris Tranquility and is a lot wider. The Swift Prospector 16 is a different story; it has 2" of rocker and is actually narrower than the Prospector 15, but still wider than your Tranquility.

I haven't paddled a Tranquility but if you want a boat of similar capacity but easier turnability, you might want to take a trip to Hemlock, NY, and look at Dave Curtis's 15-9 Peregrine and 14-9 Kestrel. They are sittable if you put the seat low enough, and the height is easy to adjust with shims and wing nuts.

As for Swift, the Keewaydin 15 and 16 may be more turnable than the Prospector 15 and are likely faster because narrower. Swifts may be hard to come by, however, because the border is closed due to Covid. North Star has a lot of lightweight solo offerings now, some with 1.5" to 2.5" of rocker -- Phoenix, Northwind Solo, Trillium -- but I've never seen them in person. There are also older Bells and Swifts that are good turners if you can find them, such as the Bell Merlin II and Swift Osprey.

Good luck in your search. I still recommend learning to heel that Tranquility more aggressively for turns. Here is a recent two-part article on the subject with pictures and links to demonstrative videos of paddling in the extremely twisty NJ Pine Barrens, by fellow northern New Yorker and Adirondack paddler Marc Ornstein:

A Pitch For Heeling, Part 1

A Pitch for Heeling, Part 2

From the articles, here's a good paddler sharply turning a flattish bottom canoe with an aggressive heel.

 

[Guest]

Mike - Thank you - not sure I really am interested in a pack style.

Maybe I should have followed my first impulse and gotten the Prospector and not looked further.

I was thinking you were interested in pack style canoes from your selections on this list.

https://www.canoetripping.net/forums...849#post121849

A solo composite Prospector might well suit your seeming desire for something shorter and more rockered than the Tranquility. The only solo Prospector I have experience with is the Clipper Prospector 14.

https://www.clippercanoes.com/collec.../14-prospector

The Prospector 14 is a very capable canoe, meets your 30” gunwale width and weight desires and, at 15” deep, carries a helluva load. But you are unlikely to find one on the east coast.

I also sense you want sufficient capacity for comfort and freeboard and that you may not be a small pack canoe guy, which are harder to get into and out of, by the way, especially for older folks with weak legs and knees.

I agree with Glenn there; with my aging, achy knees getting out of a sit-on-the-bottom pack canoe would be a painful and possibly comical event, and not something I would want to do multiple times a day.

 

[billconner]

yukon - thanks. Hornbeck is on my short list.

Glenn - I have very rarely paddled in any perceptible current on the Q and BWCA, and only very short stretches. Equally rare are bony streams. In my very brief experience in northeast waters, current and rocks are much more common.

I'll watch videos later today but I have a feeling if I sent these to my son, most frequent paddling partner, he'd laugh at the thought of me doing it.

 

[billconner]

Mike - thanks. I need to figure out the differences between different makes of Prospectors. I am only familiar with Swift's.

Best I can tell not much problem getting them across the border, but demand is high and most production - all makes - seems spoken for through mid or late summer.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Well, one can spend a long lifetime paddling in NY and the northeast without ever having to paddle in current, but then one misses out on a lot of paddling fun.

Taking many things in my experience into consideration, including availability and nearness to you, my final answer for your needs would be a 29 lb.- 35 lb. (depending on layup) Hemlock Peregrine, made by the finest hand laminator still in the business, Dave Curtis.

 

[deerfly]

I may be biased, but I agree with Glenn

I'm 220ish in this photo, canoe is loaded around 300lbs, maybe a tad more, 35qt yeti full of ice/water/beer 40ish lbs of firewood, camping/cooking and fishing gear. I do have pretty good balance, but you can see the peregrine is pretty stable to be able to stand and fly cast in slow moving water. I'm not an advanced paddler either, but have had the rails touching the water in turns. It's handled some decent chop along the coast too. The peregrine is way more capable than I am for sure. And as Glenn said, Dave's hand layup's are indistinguishable from vacuum bagged, which you can see a little of the workmanship in the bass for dinner shot...

 

[billconner]

Looks nice, and I will try to plan a trip to his shop, with gear. I am so use to picking up or dropping 2 portage packs and no loose stuff at landings, bungeeing paddles as I float in, hopping out in knee deep water, usually on the portage in under a minute. (10 or more portages a day was is not unusual for me in canoe country, and many carries northeast may be fewer. I don't know.) The Peregrine seems narrow between gunwales for that. No disrespect for your style, just not what I'm use to.

My son would laugh if you tried to tell him I would ever stand in any canoe.

The canoe is for me much more about the tripping than the paddle, the wonderfulness of being there, not the achievement of the getting there. Paddling is simply easier than walking and views from the water are often less obstructed than views from the trail.

I have to figure out if pack style is an option, which probably means testing, especially getting in and out of canoe. But Hemlock and Clipper are new to me and I appreciate the referrals. I knew of Placid and Hornbeck, but GRB Newman is new, for pack style. The multi height seat from Swift does solve the pack vs. bench issue. It is odd I like web seats and no back, hate the tractor seats, which may be best reason to not go pack.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Dave Curtis (formerly Curtis Canoe and now Hemlock Canoe), along with Mike Galt in Florida and Phil Siggelkow in Wisconsin were among the original popularizers of the modern solo canoe revolution begun in the 1970's in the USA.

Curtis/Hemlock canoes, designed primarily by Dave Yost and Harold Deal with inputs from Dave Curtis, have been the highest standard of solo canoe in the New York area and beyond since that time. They can be found used in the northeast sometimes.

Hemlock also offers two pack canoes, so you can try them out too when Dave's weekly demo days start up again. But Dave is now 80 and says his build schedule is very full, so early orders would be advised.

You won't find any Clipper canoes in the northeast and North Star is just beginning to make inroads here.

The Hemlock Peregrine is just one in a long line of very similar hulls from Dave Yost that began with the Curtis Solo Tripper in the 1980's and cycled through the Bell Merlin, the Placid Rapidfire, and now the Swift Keewaydins.

You don't need any fancy design gizmos to have a height adjustable web seat -- just some different size shims for the bolts on the seat drop blocks.

 

[Guest]

Bill, what specifically do you find lacking or wanting in your Tranquility for Adirondack tripping?

More rocker? Less length?

The Tranquility looks like a fine do-a-bit-of-everything solo, and a more expedition-ish lay up seems both unnecessary and heavier.

In any composite construction scrapes, scratches and even oops-a-rock gouges are inevitable, and repairs, cosmetic or otherwise, part of the bargain.

I have to figure out if pack style is an option, which probably means testing, especially getting in and out of canoe.

Getting into a boat, any style boat, has never been an issue for me, it’s the getting out that has become an aging knees challenge, especially with a pack style canoe or very low hung seat. Definitely not something I would enjoy doing 10 or more times a day.

Once the water is more fluid you can replicate that pack canoe exit in a rudimentary way, before getting out of your Tranquility slide your butt onto the floor of the canoe and try getting out from that position.

You could do that experiment, sans the (considerable) added degree of difficulty of wobbling about in knee deep water, by putting the canoe on a thick foam pad on the house/garage floor.

 

[billconner]

Mike- In answer to your question, I summarized it this way in an email:

"Primary impetus to switch from my SR Tranquility is difficulty turning sharply going upstream and seeming more fragile than laminates with innegra/basalt. Otherwise the Tranq is perfect for me - high initial stability, lightweight, and wide gunwales for my big portage packs. So a Tranq with more rocker and innegra."


Thank you - all - for sharing your experience.