Alternatives to Cedar?

[Gamma1214]

A recent discussion started me wondering if I've missed something critical when choosing wood for a strip build. I know that, traditionally, cedar is used but other woods can and have been used as well. I've always assumed that the trade-off (there always IS one) is weight vs price vs availability and that the ideal wood is one that is readily (ie: inexpensively and easily) available, tools well and has a color or character that we find appealing.

The reason I ask is that, in my quest for interesting, light weight wood that is native to SW PA, I've come to realize that sumac (yes, that little junk tree) is not only gorgeous but very lightweight and easy to work with. I am in the process of gathering 100 board feet or so but no commercial mill will even consider messing with it. I am, therefore, slicing those 6 & 8 inch diameter trees myself into 1x1s and sometimes 1x2s (maybe even an occasional 1x3!) which will then be dried and stripped.

As this process is a HUGE pain the the posterior, I want to be absolutely certain that the canoe I build with the resulting wood is one that I will like paddling so I am planning on building 3 or 4 "testers" (of various patterns) to see how they perform and to get mistakes out of the way on these "throw away" boats (which, of course will not be thrown away). I am currently planning a poplar build with butternut trim, a larch/hemlock(?) combo and a catalpa trimmed in (probably) sassafras.

The prospect of building something beautiful, functional and unique appeals to me as does the diversity of combining the various woods for contrasting color combos and, with 140 species (including white cedar) being native to PA, the possibilities seem endless.

I truly don't mind being a heretic (if that's all it is) but it seems that many are absolutely adamant about CEDAR. Did I miss something?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Check out this chart. You don't want to use sapwood of any tree.. https://robidecking.com/wp-content/u...1/USDA-rot.pdf

Rot resistance is paramount and something I am not sure you are aware of from what you wrote

 

[Cruiser]

There is no question that there are lots of wood types out there that "can" be used and the order of desirability will change depending on how you order your desirable characteristics.

To back up the rot aspect of sumac: https://www.wood-database.com/sumac/

This doesn't mean you can't use it, but it would be a red flag for me ... building a canoe is an investment in time and the if the wood decision uses a wood that is classed as slightly perishable ... you have a limited lifespan from the start.

The hull accounts for the single biggest weight component in a build and in most cases weight is a factor, hence the migration to western red cedar, which is one of the lightest woods, available in long clear lengths, it is a very big tree. If you are building for looks and weight isn't an issue ... you open up a whole new list of woods and artistic possibilities.

I think the only thing you may have missed is a more complete list of requirements and the ordering of those requirements in a fashion consistent with how the boat is to be used. Just as an aside, very few folks have access to white cedar and it is probably the most desirable for light weight building ... combining the 2 types of cedar can give a very pleasing contrast of colours and still be light weight.

Brian

 

[Boatman53]

I’m not sure rot is an issue unless you build with green wood. Once the boat is encapsulated in ‘glass and epoxy it should get no moisture or air hence no rot. That’s just my thoughts.
Jim

another thought, you want to cut your strips so they are quarter sawn otherwise you might end up with other problems. I once tried to build a canoe from Basswood it’s fairly light weight and very blond. The strips were not quarter sawn. On the mold all was good, i glassed the outside all was good I pulled the boat from the mold and had to put the project aside for a couple of weeks due to other things getting in the way when I finally looked at the boat, the sides were all curled in almost touching​​​​​, the when the humidity was high they spread out almost flat and back and forth it went. I gave the boat away, never finished it. There is another reason cedar in used, it doesn’t move much the humidity changes.

 

[frozentripper]

Other species that have been used are basswood and yellow pine. The main problem for me would be the extra sanding time which was too long with eastern white cedar, soft and easily sanded... esp the interior. A harder wood would have caused brain damage most likely.

PS... last time I checked with Freymond Lumber in Bancroft Ontario, they had 4' bundles of canoe grade EWC at $1.80 per board foot, prices might be higher now. Local canoe builders might also, eg. Pam Wedd.

 

[DeniseO30]

A recent discussion started me wondering if I've missed something critical when choosing wood for a strip build. I know that, traditionally, cedar is used but other woods can and have been used as well. I've always assumed that the trade-off (there always IS one) is weight vs price vs availability and that the ideal wood is one that is readily (ie: inexpensively and easily) available, tools well and has a color or character that we find appealing.

The reason I ask is that, in my quest for interesting, light weight wood that is native to SW PA, I've come to realize that sumac (yes, that little junk tree) is not only gorgeous but very lightweight and easy to work with. I am in the process of gathering 100 board feet or so but no commercial mill will even consider messing with it. I am, therefore, slicing those 6 & 8 inch diameter trees myself into 1x1s and sometimes 1x2s (maybe even an occasional 1x3!) which will then be dried and stripped.

As this process is a HUGE pain the the posterior, I want to be absolutely certain that the canoe I build with the resulting wood is one that I will like paddling so I am planning on building 3 or 4 "testers" (of various patterns) to see how they perform and to get mistakes out of the way on these "throw away" boats (which, of course will not be thrown away). I am currently planning a poplar build with butternut trim, a larch/hemlock(?) combo and a catalpa trimmed in (probably) sassafras.

The prospect of building something beautiful, functional and unique appeals to me as does the diversity of combining the various woods for contrasting color combos and, with 140 species (including white cedar) being native to PA, the possibilities seem endless.

I truly don't mind being a heretic (if that's all it is) but it seems that many are absolutely adamant about CEDAR. Did I miss something?

You don't want to use cedar, Use the wood tm you want! Some people have used marine foam core,

Because the strips are thin and small they dry fast and they don't have as much movement, but if you don't incapsulate it, you may have problems no matter what the wood is.
(Get a moisture reader)

Mills don't like to do small runs, if you gave them a forest of sumac trees, they be happy to cut it up I'm sure.

So you want to be a logger, go for it! my son and I tried making lumber out of one maple tree many years ago on the property I had. it's an incredible amount of physical labor without the right machinery! Oh .. Yeah the Vikings show how it's done,. It's called "riving"

A strip canoe is very easy to build until it comes to doing the fiberglass on the inside...

 

[dogbrain]

Gamma, I used some spruce in my last build mixed in with cedar that I already had. I can get clear spruce 1x boards in 6 or 8" widths up to 16' long. One of my lumber supply stores in Bozeman has racks of what they call "D-pine", which is really just mixed white softwood boards that have no knots. Some of the boards there are white pine, lodgepole or another species of pine, and some might be a species of fir, but a number of them can only be spruce, probably englemann, which I can distinguish from the others by the weight of the boards and looking through the end grain with a loupe. The spruce is really light, like lifting a cedar board. In fact, after I first bought a few of these boards I cut blocks and weighed them and they came out to a density of 20lbs/ft3, which is a little less than white cedar. The spruce strips I cut were definitely more flexible than western red cedar. The only downside to using all spruce for a hull would be the blotchy and yellowish appearance after epoxy and varnish. I used the same spruce for gunwales on my last 2 canoe buillds.

I would suggest calling around and ask lumberyards if they have any clear white wood boards, maybe you'll get lucky. Some pine species such as western white are close in density to cedar if you pick out the right boards because weight can vary between boards of the same species. Good Luck!

Mark

 

[yknpdlr]

A friend of mine makes beautiful canoes and guideboats by interspersing a few strips of redwood, white pine, and other woods along with the mainly cedar hull.

 

[memaquay]

Strip wood doesn't matter for rot decay. As previously mentioned, it is going to be sandwiched in between two layers of glass. Local poplar has very poor rot resistance, but I have successfully used it in strip building with no worries. I'm a fan of using whatever is available locally. My current freighter build has pine, spruce, poplar, western red and eastern cedar. Not because I wanted to make any fancy patterns, but because it is what I could scrounge for free. Not that I'm overly frugal, but there is the old joke - What's the difference between canoes and canoeists? Canoes tip.

 

[Iskweo]

We used a poplar accent once and it was a real b*tch to sand when paired with the cedar. Especially flat sawn. Dont go there.

White spruce is a very strong light wood and can be stained pretty much any colour you desire with good results. The issue is finding clear white spruce in any usable length. We like it for gunwales and it is tough to find. You also need to be careful that you are getting spruce and not pine or fir. Although douglas fir is very pretty if you find a good piece. I usually end up scarfing pieces together to get the length I want. I have used that approach with strip building too to get a certain pattern or colour effect that I wanted and while scarfing is tedious it does solve a lot of problems.

Curing your own lumber is a long process that often results in a lot of cracks and splits. Kiln dried lumber is much more uniform in quality but does not rehydrate so well for bending...An issue for us W/C people but not for strip builders so much.

I would absolutely use any wood for accents and seat frames, thwarts, etc, but the only wood I would strip a hull with is either red cedar, or white spruce. The spruce will be heavier but if its not for portaging then who cares.

I dare you to strip a whole boat from red oak or mahogany...lol.

It really all depends on how picky you are with the visuals. If your artistic licence is only a learners permit then you can look the other way on a lot of flaws.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong ( but I'm not).

Christy

 

[Gamma1214]

I dare you to strip a whole boat from red oak or mahogany...lol

Maybe one of Mem's square stern, trailered boats... I actually found some cheap, straight-grained, kiln-dried black walnut that had wonderful color but (at 40 lbs/cu ft), I know better than THAT.

I'll be portaging but reducing strip thickness to account for the weight. If cedar is 23-24 lbs/ cu ft and 1/4 in strips are standard, catalpa (27 lbs/ cu ft) would actually be less weight if stripped at 3/16. Granted, I COULD strip cedar at 3/16 and reduce weight more but I think I'd like the variety pack of color better.

You don't want to use sapwood of any tree.

I won't have any choice but to use sapwood when I (eventually) tackle the sumac. There is no heartwood; only pith. The fact that they're hollow is probably a big reason they never get very big. The hollow trunk is simply not strong enough to hold up. (2 of the biggest that I've found were both blow-downs). I'll trust that sealing well in glass will be sufficient to preserve it.

Also, I won't be curing the lumber myself, just cutting it. The sumac trees are just too small (mostly 6-8 inches in diameter and 4-6 feet long before they branch) for any mill to mess with so I'm slicing on a band saw and I'll take them to a friend's kiln to have them dried. All strips will be scarfed as even the larch I've found was 8-10 foot boards. (no big deal, I can cut a scarf joint)

Hopefully, I'll get WAY off the reservation with species selection this winter and I'll report back on how it goes.

 

[Gamma1214]

We used a poplar accent once and it was a real b*tch to sand when paired with the cedar

I'm curious. I know people have used both species... was the cedar that much softer that it was gouging by the time the poplar was smooth or what seemed to be the issue?

In hindsight, I suppose that would have been a better question initially (maybe I should start a new thread?). If you've used something other than cedar, what were your experiences?

I think Stripperguy told me once that a friend built one with spalded aspen... I would think that was an interesting & lightweight hull but aspen is so soft that I think it might have been a b*tch to sand.

 

[memaquay]

I'm having some problems with the popular/pine mix right now. The poplar is much softer than the pine and sands faster. However, I find it sands up real nice, has kind of a maple look once covered with glass. I'll try to take a pic tomorrow and post.