10 pound challenge

[Traveler]

Hi all. New to this forum and also new to canoe building. Been a lot of fun so far - started this in mid July with a handful of 16 foot decking boards from Home Depot and just finished glassing the outside and flipped it today to start on the interior. It is a 15 foot Ashes Solo Day, with 3/16 strips (hope my photo attachment worked). Have a single external layer of 6 ounce glass with three additional layers at each stem. The fibreglassing was semi-successful, in that it is solid but I wound up with a lot of streaks from amateurish use of a squeegee. Did a lot of sanding but now down to where I can see the cloth in places with some streaks stil remaining. I won't go any further, and will decide later whether to clear varnish or just paint the exterior, which I would be fine with.

I want to use this primarily for light tripping (2-3 nights, small lakes and calm rivers). Lightweight is a priority, but it also needs to be able to take some limited abuse. Right now the bare, partially fibreglassed hull weighs 22.5 pounds. My goal is as close to 30 pounds as I can get, but anything up to to
35 would be good. So assuming two pounds or so for the remaining non discretionary fibreglass I have about a ten pound maximum budget for all the fittings.

I have been reading this and other forums and have found some interesting ideas like cedar gunnels, composite hockey stick shafts for thwarts, strap yoke, etc. These all sound pretty promising but would appreciate any thoughts members here might have on these or other options to help me hit my 10 pound challenge. I have some budget but not unlimited, and don't have experience with or access to (in my mind at least) more exotic things like vacuum lamination equipment. I will have just one thwart, a small handle at each end, and no or very tiny decks (but flotation chambers would be nice). No real ideas on the seat, but leaning towards something floor mounted and low, but still an actual seat and not a dry sack or something - I plan to use a double bladed paddle, at least at this stage.

Anyway, that's my 10 pound challenge. Sorry if this post is too wide open, but any help or advice greatly appreciated (including whether any of you think I am being naive or reckless here, which given my total absence of experience in building a canoe could very well be the case). Thanks, and all the best.

 

[stripperguy]

Welcome Traveler
youve got a great start so far and your weight is pretty low
Congrats!!
as for keeping the weight low:
fiberglass over foam is tough to beat for lightweight trim and adequate strength
i would avoid thick carbon cloth or tape it will suck up tons of resin
double layers of glass over foam would be plenty strong and can be painted black

Glass over foam for a seat pedestal too and thwarts... again paint it black and tell everyone it’s carbon
use a quality foam epoxy together thinner pieces if need be to control costs

keep us posted
theres a ton of experience here

 

[Alan Gage]

Welcome aboard. Looks like you're off to a good start.

My suggestion for you, since this is your first build, would be to not worry so much about the weight. Try to keep it reasonable but don't go nuts. Building really lightweight is not easy and it's not cheap. Building something pretty lightweight is pretty cheap and easy. Hitting thirty pounds is already out the window. Thirty five is probably doable but will take some work.

If you want to try cedar gunwales I'm all for it but I'd recommend screwing them on and not covering them with fiberglass. Composite gunwales are a ton of work. If the cedar starts to get chewed up after a few years it would be easy enough to sand in place or unscrew it and replace it with new cedar or something harder. I've glued a lot of gunwales in place but on my last build I screwed them on for the first time. It was a bit of a revelation. Before I knew it the job was done and I just stood back with a shocked look on my face like, "was that really all there is to it?"

Just because they're screwed on doesn't mean they have to be heavy. I used ash but it was only 3/8" on both the inners and outers, which would be half the weight (and cost) of more traditional 3/4" thick inners and outers. To give enough material for attaching thwarts I glued short strips of material the inwales at those locations for extra thickness.

Depending on your aesthetic preferences aluminum tubing is cheap (compared to composite) and lightweight. It's fine for thwarts and grab handles and could be used for a seat frame too. If you don't like the color of aluminum you can spray paint it whatever color you want. Flat black is nice.

Hopefully, after you build this one, you'll be itching to build another and you can apply all the things you've learned. It's a progression.

If you haven't seen it yet you'll find this build interesting. An experienced builder trying to build as light as possible. It's a boat similarly sized to yours: http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/general-paddling-discussions/diy/848-j-winters-kite-build

He wasn't satisfied with the weight so a couple years later made a full composite version of the same boat: http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/58166-carbon-copy-kite

Lots of great ideas in both those threads and illustrates well how difficult it is to shave off those last few pounds.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

I for one think this is a Great Challenge ! I think you could do this !

Henry Rustron in 1880 built the Sary Gamp for Nessmuk. at 10.5 #
Nessmuk traveled the Adirondaks on many solitary tours.

Oh, to think what Henry could have done with Epoxy in those days !!!

This last Spring, I finished a Carbon/ Kevlar build. Built for comfort and durability, capable of wilderness tripping. In my view anyway ! I want to make it home, Without Help !!

Here is the link of the build. At 16' 1". It weighed 36.5 # when finished. I'll be giving it a work out, it in the BWCA, in a week.

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/76669-carbon-kevlar-black-pearl

All of us builders will have different opinions,( as it should be !)

Now If I was looking to lighten a canoe, for light use, here's how I would do it !

Start at the shearline with a 1/2" shear strip, Cedar, full length. This will serve as the gunnel. Bevel to match 1/8" strips, that will follow. 1/8" strips up to about the 3" waterline, from there 3/16". No bead and cove obviously. Using Staples.

4 oz S-glass in and out, with an extra 4 oz S-glass layer, over the football to the 4" waterline. Warp the gunnel in S-glass.

Pedestal seat.
Flotation chambers, to serve also as deck.
Two Aluminum thwarts.
Varnish ! It's lighter than paint.

A pedestal seat can save a lot of weight, by negating the need to stiffen the sides, or the need of heavy gunnels to support the seat !

You might entertain the thought of using your Stripper, as a Male mold, for a composite, as I and others have done !

Good luck ! You are in good company here !

Jim

 

[Cruiser]

It looks like you have the outside fiber glassed and are ready to move on to the inside. You made a good decision for weight by going to the 3/16" strips, that is a good area to save weight.

I did a weight inventory of my last build here (look near the bottom of the page) : http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/73582-freedom-solo-16/page6

I would love to be optimistic, but I doubt very much your 10 lb challenge is going to be doable. You can only reduce things to a certain point and you are already past a 30 lb point IMO (unless you compromise the build strength), you might make the mid 30s, but I would bet it will be high 30s ... still a good accomplishment, better than most builds.

I hope I am wrong and you get to the 30 lbs you are looking for .... buuutttt

Brian

 

[frozentripper]

Lightjay (Jay Morrison) going all-out for lightness,built a Bob's at 38 pounds and an Osprey at 35... the last going on a cross-Canada trip.

Build details:

https://www.paddlinglight.com/articl...ness-tripping/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...article729325/

 

[Jim Dodd]

Thanks Frozentripper !

Jay and I have a lot in common. My Grandfather, on my Mothers side lost an arm farming, but still managed to build a boat in the basement of the house I grew up in ! Though I never got to meet him.

I would suggest to Jay to cut his own strips with a Skilsaw ! That is where a builder saves the big bucks ! Easily $800 as compared to a kit !

Thanks again ! I just subscribed !

Jim

 

[frozentripper]

YW Jim, glad to see it might be useful info.. Lightjay used to post in the old days at MYCCR when it was more of a frontier saloon type of place.

Myself, only built one stripper, a tandem Huron Cruiser, and 53 pounds was the lightest I could build in while still trying for some durability.

Always learned from the building expertise here, all the best during this time of year, prime time canoeing.

 

[Traveler]

Hi - thanks for sharing your suggestions and expertise on this. Reading the amazing build links you guys have created and looking at the techniques employed is at first a bit overwhelming, but then I realize that it doesn't really require a lot of high-tech equipment and materials, just knowledge, a fair bit of experience and appetite for trial and error, and a good eye for innovation and practical work-arounds. It then becomes a lot less intimidating for a newbie like me, although I definitely have a ways to go before tackling something like building a composite canoe off of a cedar strip plug (I barely was able to layout a tolerable exterior layer of fibreglass on my build so far). Still it has all given me a lot of food for thought, if not for my current first build then maybe sometime soon down the road.

Got a couple of quick questions/reactions:

Stripperguy, you probably said somewhere in your thread but I must have missed it - what kind of foam did you use for your gunnels and other fittings. I thought I read somewhere that it was basic insulation foam (like from Home Depot), but I think I might be wrong on this? I like the look of your canoe a lot, especially the use of black tinted resin. On this, do graphite epoxy coatings on higher abrasion areas like gunnel tops or stems actually do much in terms of protection? Also, I like your bikes - I have a neglected Ducati sport classic 1000 sitting under a dust-covered dust cover in my garage now. This canoe has eaten up almost all my riding time since July.

Alan, your advice on keeping things manageable on my first build is well taken. Besides, I am getting a little impatient to have something on the water before freeze-up and am running out of time for experimenting much if I want to make that timeline. Straight up, lightweight wood gunnels for now probably makes the most sense (I am still thinking cedar as I have a bunch of decent boards left over in my garage). Might play with some fibreglass lamination, but I will screw them on so I can change them out for something lighter in the spring after trying my hand at some lighter weight approaches. I do like the suggestion from you and Jim of aluminium tubes for thwarts and handles and will definitely be shopping for those soon.

Jim, I am sold on the pedestal seat, and your use of Velcro. Some version of it seems like a very doable solution to the low seating position I want, and the mobility of it will let me fine tune things. Actually thinking of some kind of modular setup using foam blocks with Velcro, that will let me sit down low in a packboat sort of way for a double paddle or reconfigure into a kneeling thwart for a single.

Cruiser, thanks for your realistic assessment - it pains me, but I agree that 30 pounds is probably not doable if I want a useable canoe. But I am still pretty hopeful for 35 pounds - the canoe I have built is pretty low volume (15 feet long but under 50 square feet of surface area - I am actually getting a bit concerned on this point given how I want to use it, but for now I will think about a light spray skirt and dance with the lady that brung me) so I am hoping the remaining fibreglass and varnish won't add too much more weight. I think I can get my gunnels under 4 pounds, aluminum thwarts and handles not much more than a pound(?) and seat about the same. I don't plan to install decks or a fixed yoke. A wild card for me is flotation chambers, which I really want, and in reading your build link it reminded me that I need to include footrests as well. So will definitely be touch and go but still hopeful. Totally unrelated, but my wife took a photo of me in the middle of cutting my strips which looks eerily like the dust-covered one of you on your link, complete with an identical dust mask.

Frozentripper, funny you should bring up Jay Morrison, as it was a read of a post of his a while back that gave me a bit of confidence that something in the thirty to thirty five pound range was feasible.

Thanks to all of you for your comments and the ton of information you have pointed me to. I haven't absorbed it all yet and if you feel up to indulging me I will definitely have more questions coming up. Thanks again

Tony

 

[stripperguy]

Tony,
I used Divinycell H80 closed cell foam, made specifically by Diab for composite building. Jim used some cheaper pink foam from HD or Lowes and did not have good results with it.

I only used a pigmented red resin on the outside of my hull, the black trim is all carbon fiber sleeving or bias woven tape. The bias woven (warp and weave at 45 degrees) was very easy to conform to the complex curves of the gunnels, it also soaked up much resin and increased the weight of my build substantially. I did add some fiberglass cloth over part of the gunnels on the red Kite, to stiffen them where the gunnels rest on my roof racks. I would not use that material again, a couple layers of glass and some spray paint would provide the same functionality.
For abrasion resistance at the stems, I used Dynel cloth, still the best abrasion resistant fiber you can buy.

As for graphite added to a composite lay up, I know quite a few guys do exactly that. However, my education and background in the field of tribology says don't bother, unless you expect to use the graphite as a sacrificial third body lubricant.

Side note: My S-I-L is a registered NYS dealer, and through him I often buy insurance wrecks to repair for fun and profit. But that 2010 Triumph Bonneville SE is a keeper...and my son has that 2016 Moto Guzzi that was a wreck with no obvious damage and 230 miles on the ODO...we still don't know the history of it. Many others have come and gone.
I've loved the Ducati twins since I rode a buddy's 750 desmo back in '74 or so, but now I'm dating myself.

 

[Traveler]

Finished inside fibreglass. I just weighed it after completing all of the sanding, outside and in - a plump 28.4 pounds (per my digital bathroom scale). Up from 22.5 pounds in my original post, meaning almost six pounds of fibreglass and resin for the interior (including a generous football layer and a hefty fillet at each stem). Way more than I expected, (and probably in part due to my still evolving glassing skills) but watcha gonna do? Also, I had to be a bit aggressive on the exterior sanding to get everything smooth (see glassing skills reference above), so I probably will need to add another thin fill coat since the cloth is becoming visible in quite a few spots (although it disappears when I wet down the hull so maybe I will leave it).

Sooo, 35 pounds total weight is definitely gone by the way side. Let's see if I can keep it under 40 (12 pound challenge?).

 

[stripperguy]

Well,
I wouldn't throw it away just yet...you still have a beautiful boat that you've built yourself, at a bargain price too!
Depending on whether you've sliced through the cloth while sanding, or just exposed the weave, you could spot laminate that (those?) section(s) or just slap on some varnish and use the boat.
That particular hull design is similar to the Kite that I built, it's kind of chubby for a 15 ft hull, and it's difficult to keep the weight down with that much hull. It will be very comfortable in the water, confidence inspiring likely. Like everything in life, there are compromises that must be made. So you traded comfort on the water for a little extra effort while carrying. No big deal.

Oh, and have you trimmed your sheer line yet? You could trim away some excess sheer if your loads (you and gear) are well below the design displacement and/or if you'll be mostly in protected waters.

For your next boat, you'll need to decide if you can live with less volume and beam.
For your next boat, you might choose to use 4 oz cloth.
For you next boat, you might cut your strips thinner yet, or use a foam core.

To paraphrase that old potato chip commercial, betcha can't build just one!

 

[Cruiser]

Traveler ... i will routinely use a thin epoxy final coat on the outside after sanding ... both to seal any place where it might have come close to the cloth and also it seems to give a nicer finish. Good news is that a coat like that weighs ounces not pounds, so it is not really going to impact your weight budget much. I like to hand sand with 220 when I use that coat, it always seems to make the varnishing easier and seems to give a nicer finish. I can't explain why and I have never read any reason why this may be so ... but that doesn't change the idea that it does seem to work.

When working with epoxy, remember that it weighs a lot ( I believe in the 90 #s per cubic foot) .... so fillet for example will weigh much more than any wood you use. So adding any epoxy related features need to be necessary if you are watching the weight budget. Adding the extra glass at the football isn't really necessary for your intended use, so that alone would have saved several pounds .... if that is a stemless version, the fillets likely added a couple pounds as well ... if it is a stemmed model, the fillets aren't needed.

I am not trying to be critical (may sound that way) just trying to share some of the points to watch for weight ...

Just bought the lumber for my next boat, it will be a 15' custom solo, with a target weight of 30 pounds ... that will be a challenge, but I think it is doable.

Brian

 

[Traveler]

Thanks for these good points, and believe me I am not reading any of this as being critical. But don't get me wrong, I am still very happy with this boat. Might turn out to be a little heavier than I had hoped, but will still be on the light side and, based on your comments stripperguy, it looks like I will be happy with how it performs. I have already rough trimmed the sheer line, and not sure I want to bring it down lower for what I assume would only be a pound or so weight reduction (already below 12 inches at the center, and the bow is In the 15 inch range if I recall last time I measured). And yup, I have started to "skim coat" the outside and it will be just a matter of ounces, not pounds of epoxy - no cloth cut so all I am looking for is a little epoxy cushion for any future touch ups I might have to make after I get it on the water.

I knew I was kissing 30 pounds goodbye when I decided to use 6 ounce cloth instead of 4, but could not find 4 ounce in the Ottawa area so just went with what was most convenient. Thought I could stay at 35 by not doing extra on the inside football, but chickened out when I saw how much flex was in the hull after I did the outside only. Same rationale for why I added solid fillets on the stems (it is a stemless design). So this much weight shouldn't have come as a surprise for me (especially if I had read more closely the weight inventory you referenced on your Freedom build thread Brian).

Still hopeful for somewhere between 35 and 40 pounds, which I believe is what you predicted as most realistic Brian, and in re-reading your thread the sum total of the fittings you used would put me there if I can more or less duplicate their weights. Once I finish tidying up the hull over the next day or so I can start on that - will be good to do something other than sand, fibreglass, and repeat.

And I am really interested in your planned 30 pound build Brian. Hopefully you will post it as a thread - if I get my current boat done reasonably soon maybe I will trail along yours as my next build. I still have nearly enough cedar boards in the garage for another 15 footer

Thanks for the good advice.

Tony

 

[Cruiser]

I should start posting around the end of January Tony .... I have some designing to do before the build, but I just scored some 16" select northern white cedar, which was pretty important to getting the build that light. I will be lofting a buddies 14' canoe as a starting point, then modifying for width, length and bow/stern shape ... but I have a few others things ahead of the build, but it will be posted here (and BearMountain).


Brian

 

[Traveler]

Cool!

 

[Traveler]

Given the good advice I have received here on this build, thought I would give an update before hanging up my sander for the winter (just too cold now for what I have left to do, and I have to make room in my garage for actual cars before the snow flies). Finished the structural stuff (added one-piece, 13/16 by 7/8 ash gunnel, a couple each of 3/4 by 1 inch ash thwarts and handles, along with small cedar deck pieces to stiffen up the stems at each end, and a pack boat height minicell seat that I will try out). Tried to keep things minimal and I am reasonably happy with where the weight has come out considering I bailed on non-ash options for the finishing - now at 34.9 pounds (per digital bathroom scale). Still to come is clean-up sanding and varnish inside and maybe paint outside, which will add another pound or so(?). Plus I still need to add some 3m dual lock for the seat, a couple of foot braces and some kind of flotation chamber option, so probably looking at three or four pounds more when all is said and done.

Was at a local canoe shop the other day, and saw a new Swift Cruiser 14.8 Pack Boat at 25 pounds and for a pretty interesting sale price. It's a nice looking boat, and really is the size and style I am looking for. I was sorely tempted. But then I thought that yeah, my canoe will be well over ten pounds heavier, but it is still light enough for me to easily handle, will look and paddle pretty good when finished, I spent about one third of the cost of the Swift on it, and I got a lot of joy and valuable knowledge and experience out of putting it together that will serve me well for my next, better and lighter build. I walked away a happy guy.

A couple of photos - excuse the gobs of thickened epoxy still to be sanded away here and there. Will probably have some questions about final finishing and flotation tank options later, and will post more when I wrap it all up in the early spring. Thanks all.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Looks great ! I didn't worry about the weight of my canoes ! After years of toting a 17' aluminum. Now at my age, I'm more into reducing weight !

Yeah. Winter is setting in here also, time to switch to Hard water interests !

Capping the gunnels will seal the top of the hull, and give you long life gunnels ! Good job !

Flotation ?

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/93266-flotation-chambers

 

[Cruiser]

Looking awesome, you will chomping at the bit to hit water in the spring. Just to remember to bring us along when you start working again.

I have probably said it before, but IMO it is much better to scrape epoxy with a carbide scraper to level it, rather than trying to sand it. It just works better and is a lot less work and i believe you get a better final product.

Brian

 

[Traveler]

Closing the loop on this build. Lots of intervening priorities and projects this spring and summer, but managed to finish it up a little while ago. I like how it came out, although I really blew by my incredibly naive weight goal - it is just a hair under 40 pounds, including the detachable yoke (ash all around for gunwales and fittings, even if small-dimensioned, plus a heavy hand with the epoxy pretty well sealed its fate in this area I think). But the weight is stil very manageable for cartopping and portage so not a big issue at the end of the day.

Went with Interlux Brightside paint for the outside (three coats over grey Interlux primer) - very happy with the colour (Flag Blue) and it is pretty easy to get a very nice finish with roll and tip (although beyond my skills to get it perfect). I see more painted exteriors in my future.






Set up the seat for double-blade paddling, although I also find that without the seat the middle thwart works well for kneeling (until my knees and ankles start to lock up). I think I put the contoured seat a bit too low, so will be playing with moving to a flat seat to raise it an inch or two. Used hinges with pins for the detachable yoke - works great.





And a a couple of action shots



Ł


Next up is a Tandem build for my daughter and her boyfriend (which I will happily be storing at my place since it won't fit in their condo). Freedom 17 seems to be an interesting and "tried and true" option, but also looking at a few other designs while I pull my cedar and supplies together. Thanks again to all the builders in this forum who helped me out with this. It was a lot of fun (mostly) and despite a few frustrations there is absolutely nothing like paddling a craft you built yourself.

Oh my, how did that get in here.