Good advice.
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Self-learning to pole upstream - bow control and other tips?
- Thread starter Tsuga8
- Start date
Good advice.
Yes, thanks Steve and others for the good advice. I tried a new stretch of creek yesterday, spent 80 min going upstream (practicing/playing around), and 20 min coming back down. Really nice conditions with a lot of gravel bottom and often 1-3ft water depth with some good riffles and swifts that took some work to get up. I'm getting better at tracking, though still work to do there. The current in the flats was such that it was worth keeping up momentum. I experimented with spending less time on the rudder and using the time it took from recovery to the shoe hitting bottom again as the correction instead.
Bow control coming out of an eddy to do a big push up a drop still needs work but practice is helping. A lot of it is gauging force to apply in a push and how that translates to bow angle relative to current. There was one spot that really fooled me - I'd underestimated the volume coming in from a small tributary that was pushing water and impacting current almost to the opposite bank of the main stem. Great spot to study by feel.
I think I want a wood pole shoed at both ends. Due to cool air and cold water I started with wood, but when going got tough I kept wanting to use both ends. Picked up the aluminum and, with water dripping from both ends my hands got cold fast. Maybe the wood with two shoes will be too heavy, but I'm curious to try. Neoprene gloves on aluminum might make more sense....
Bow control coming out of an eddy to do a big push up a drop still needs work but practice is helping. A lot of it is gauging force to apply in a push and how that translates to bow angle relative to current. There was one spot that really fooled me - I'd underestimated the volume coming in from a small tributary that was pushing water and impacting current almost to the opposite bank of the main stem. Great spot to study by feel.
I think I want a wood pole shoed at both ends. Due to cool air and cold water I started with wood, but when going got tough I kept wanting to use both ends. Picked up the aluminum and, with water dripping from both ends my hands got cold fast. Maybe the wood with two shoes will be too heavy, but I'm curious to try. Neoprene gloves on aluminum might make more sense....
Happens to me all the time.
My lightest aluminum pole weighs about 3 lbs. Also my lightest wood pole (the "Home Depole") is about the same. The trick today seems to be finding a good straight grained doug fir closet rod. I have not seen one of those for several years now. I have one I made from a hemlock closet rod that I don't like. The slightest bit of grain runout tends to peel away into knife blades.
If you can find a suitable piece of closet rod and put the copper end caps with hanger bolts on it, you'll probably really like it for light work. When I'm tripping upstream, I usually bring that HD pole and my heavier (~5 lbs) ash pole with custom delrin/aluminum shoes. One for general light current and the other for hard climbs.
I can't source spruce here economically, but I've read that it's lighter than ash - so you may have better options.
Yeah, I have two professionally made spruce poles with shoes from Maine (one cast iron shoe, one bronze). I got spare shoes of both types since it seems like makers of such useful items are increasingly endangered.
I also have some homemade poles- a couple Norway spruce and what I think was hickory (haven't used that one yet), as well as some maple and red cedar sticks that have yet to become poles. I imagine the homemade copper and hanger bolt is lighter than a solid metal manufactured shoe - maybe I'll do homemade shoes on one of my homemade poles or poles-to-be.
I know @Paddlinhal also wraps his aluminum poles in vinyl tape for grip and maybe warmth.
Lots to try - not enough time to get out there!
I also have some homemade poles- a couple Norway spruce and what I think was hickory (haven't used that one yet), as well as some maple and red cedar sticks that have yet to become poles. I imagine the homemade copper and hanger bolt is lighter than a solid metal manufactured shoe - maybe I'll do homemade shoes on one of my homemade poles or poles-to-be.
I know @Paddlinhal also wraps his aluminum poles in vinyl tape for grip and maybe warmth.
Lots to try - not enough time to get out there!
So this initial alignment must be a fast one. Blast across the eddy line as high up in the eddy as possible and at a shallower angle. This is where it is best to have the pole on the eddy side so that you can immediately push the stern across to align below the bow. Push the pole down, crunch on it and climb it to the top and visualize pushing the boat forward with your feet.
The blasting across the eddyline was definitely my struggle. The harder I push, the less control I have and the more I tend to impart turn. I think I understand the needed ideas - just need to practice the doing more. Still, I definitely appreciate the advice!
This is where aggressive healing works wonders. If you're getting blown out to your left, pick up your right foot and really edge the boat, and most times the bow will swing right up.
I gotta come to Idaho! 
Ok, now this is really giving me something to think about! Would you say this works better with a flat bottom, rounded, or vee hull?
I was trying to lean a bit the other day, and even tried to hold still midstream with the pole and just work the bow back and forth leaning, but I don't have the control yet or the current was too pushy, or both, to get much success in staying still into the current.
When I'm going upstream and the current wants to grab my bow I trim my boat more stern heavy. This exposes the bottom of the boat to the current where it has nothing to grab. With a flat trim I guess you could lean into your turn and carve with your bow in the direction you want to go but it will take more skill and be less forgiving.
I would think that a rounded (shallow arch) or V hull would be better than a flat one for maneuverability. I've found a V to be more stable than a rounded hull when leaned over but a rounded hull gives you more precision. Whatever your hull shape, you need to get your weight in the chine of the boat to get the most carve, so I like a boat that has large radius chine.
I would think that a rounded (shallow arch) or V hull would be better than a flat one for maneuverability. I've found a V to be more stable than a rounded hull when leaned over but a rounded hull gives you more precision. Whatever your hull shape, you need to get your weight in the chine of the boat to get the most carve, so I like a boat that has large radius chine.
Yes, I'm trimming upstream-end light when poling. On Sunday I was in the Heron (15' x 35", flat-bottomed, but with a decently sharp bow for a Royalex boat). I started between the bow seat and center yoke, but eventually turned the boat 180deg and stood between the stern seat and yoke so I could get farther back and get the upstream end higher.
I still haven't gotten the Morningstar on moving water but that's next. Not sure how much boat length and weight are playing a role here (obviously some) as well as hull shape.
There's definitely a balancing act among burying the downstream end for tracking, wetted-hull length, getting the upstream end high but not too high, and being able to impart proper lean for carving, and it of course changes based on current force and direction. I know I'm not yet getting it right. More time on the water needed!
I still haven't gotten the Morningstar on moving water but that's next. Not sure how much boat length and weight are playing a role here (obviously some) as well as hull shape.
There's definitely a balancing act among burying the downstream end for tracking, wetted-hull length, getting the upstream end high but not too high, and being able to impart proper lean for carving, and it of course changes based on current force and direction. I know I'm not yet getting it right. More time on the water needed!
I want to say it works best with the vee and least with the flat, but it's been so long since I compared all three that I don't feel confident in that statement. The shallow arch canoes I've had were always the most forgiving and stable in the rough, so that's what I've gravitated to.
Your stationary working the bow left and right is a good drill for getting the feel of how the boat responds to edging. I like to work some of that into each trip early on. But even if I'm starting out on slow or non moving water, I begin with my feet in the chines and raising my feet alternately to edge side to side. That both limbers me up and reminds me how the boat feels on edge.
You mentioned controlling the bow and staying straight in the current. Trim is very important. Where are you positioning yourself in the boat?
You need to be neutral or slightly bow heavy, much like paddling into a strong wind.
You need to be neutral or slightly bow heavy, much like paddling into a strong wind.
I assume we are talking about going upstream so I don't think that is the case Forester. When you're paddling into the wind with a heavy bow there is less hull above the water to get affected by the wind and the more affected stern will want to weathervane downwind keeping you going straight. In a current it is the opposite, the more hull that's underwater the more it will be affected and want to weathervane downstream spinning you around.
That is correct. The pushier the current you're going against, the lighter the bow needs to be.
So oddly, this is actually true if it is fast current and/or very shallow. I have very rarely seen this documented, but it is in a few older books and manual. The problem is that most people don't travel that far against a current these days and (to be honest here...) most people are not as accomplished at long distance poling upstream. We are recreational polers, after all. We are not like the timber cruisers or trappers heading upstream for days (for the most part, some exceptions here maybe). Here it is. Think about marathon canoe racers. They trim bow down because they approach their boats hull speed and that will affect the wave forms created by the hull in water. This is compounded by shallow water. It is physics and you can read about it here: https://thescienceofpaddling.net/part-4-shallow-water . We may well be in tripping boats, but when we are going upstream, the effect is the same as the water is passing our hull. I have noticed this and played with it myself. Most polers trim bow light because we don't carry enough load to give us more inertia to forestal getting swung down stream, AND we just aren't skilled enough to stay straight. In really pushy stuff and popping up a drop, then we have to trim to buoy up the bow, but for normal upstream travel, then it should be level to bow down. Generally for we day polers out for an upstream challenge in a noticeable current, we trim bow light. It is worth experimenting with and it will certainly challenge you, but you can't argue with the physics. I recommend the above article.
When it comes to poling upstream though, it's not that cut & dried. Few of us are going to approach hull speed in a recreational canoe, even accounting for opposing current. In features where river flow exceeds 3-4 mph, fall rate begins to dictate what you can get away with doing with the bow, and getting blown out happens quicker than most of us can react. Moving back to drop the stern acts as a virtual skeg to aid in recovering or maintaining an upstream trajectory, but yes, it slows the boat..... generally. More on that later when I have more time.
A longer and loaded canoe does make a huge difference though. Given that most of us are poling in canoes meant for hauling a load and having some maneuverability, but not for racing or teams of more than two, adding weight is usually our biggest speed advantage during attainments - as long as we avoid being blown out. My most amazing (to me) climbs up drops and ledges have been with several days worth of comfortable camping gear and food in the boat. In those cases though, bow heavy would had had me crashing into the rocks making the ledge.
A longer and loaded canoe does make a huge difference though. Given that most of us are poling in canoes meant for hauling a load and having some maneuverability, but not for racing or teams of more than two, adding weight is usually our biggest speed advantage during attainments - as long as we avoid being blown out. My most amazing (to me) climbs up drops and ledges have been with several days worth of comfortable camping gear and food in the boat. In those cases though, bow heavy would had had me crashing into the rocks making the ledge.
As I said... it is a thing. I am usually in quite shallow water and fast and I trim bow light, but if I am cruising upstream in less than 18" of water and I have a load, I will be experimenting with the bow down.
Anywho... we gotta practice.
Anywho... we gotta practice.
As I said... it is a thing. I am usually in quite shallow water and fast and I trim bow light, but if I am cruising upstream in less than 18" of water and I have a load, I will be experimenting with the bow down.
Anywho... we gotta practice.
No disagreement there. And I note that if you start with bow down trim, the moment you apply thrust, the bow will raise. So, there's that.
I gotta get to the desktop and dig up a video ...
Couple of videos from a couple of my local play spots...
On this one, I can't climb this because there's a slick slab of concrete under it. But if you want to practice bow control, find yourself a surf wave. Idunno if this demonstrates bow light or bow heavy though. One things for sure - if I move forward in the boat, I'm going to crash into the ledge (BTDT)....
Here's another where bow heavy will crash you into rocks. Having a lot of rocker helps here, but I've climbed it many times in the Coho as well. Bow control is critical, since there's only a couple of narrow paths between the rocks....
I will say this...Having a bunch of weight in the bow on that second video would be an advantage when topping out and departing the ledge. If you look close you can see that I'm standing close to the yoke. I'm not athletic enough to jump and clear that yoke to move forward. But I could be standing farther back with weight in the bow and hop forward from there at the top. Getting the boat level ASAP when topping out gets you out of the fast water sooner and makes it easier to escape the ledge. You give up some maneuverability in that configuration, but it makes the climb easier.
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