(Another) help me find a new solo canoe

[billconner]

I have read several threads on this but we are all different. 69, 220 lbs, 6-1, sit never kneel, intermediate paddler on a good day, and like multi-day or week treks. Experience mostly BWCA and Q. Love and will continue to paddle my Souris River Tranquility (with a Bending Branches Slice) and a Souris River Q17, in big flat water. But my 1 1/2 seasons of Adirondacks and New England have convinced me I need a shorter canoe with at least some rocker. My 3 days on NFCT - Dead River from Grand Falls to Flagstaff - and overnight on Oswegatchie was enough. I have a NFCT through paddle on my list - could be sections - and probably primary focus for this research, for now at least.

On the Dead I got my first deep gouge on my Tranq - to but not through kevlar. I know its repairable but would like to avoid in future so my first pondering is kevlar lay-us with innegra (Northstar IXP, Swift Expedition, Savage River Expedition, maybe others) OR t-formex. I test paddled the Esquif Echo and found it only a little slippery - lower initial stability I think - and the Swift Prospector 15 at Paddlefest 2019 - and felt very comfortable in the Prospector. I probably would have been a OT Pack devotee from what I read her and have looked at but not tested the Esquif Adirondack. Savage River Illusion was suggested and seems close - would want to test paddle.

But main question is a laminate with innegra robust enough or should I go to t-formex (or royalex if I found the right used canoe - and both of my current were bought used for ridiculously low prices.)

I look forward to your comments.

 

[ppine]

Bill,
I have done plenty of river trips paddling solo in a tandem canoe like a Sawyer Cruiser and a Wenonah Odyssey.
I just converted an OT Canadienne in the 15'7" length to a solo boat. I am still getting used to the 32 inch beam. It feels tender still. I have not tried it yet with an overnight load which should help. The larger tandem canoes are more casual to paddle especially with a dog in the boat. Just my two cents. There seem to be a lot of solo boats with even narrower beams. They do not sound that appealing to me.

I keep thinking of this quote. "The secret to a happy life is not to get what you want, it is to want what you have."

 

[billconner]

I think under 30 at the gunwales is desirable, and as close to or below 40 pounds as possible. Long portages on the NFCT. The Echo is heavy at 45. Frankly, the only sub-40 pound t-formex that I found and has the weight capacity - 220 plus 80-100 pounds of gear - is the Esquif Adirondack. Seems like a replacement of the OT Pack. I wish I could feel comfortable I won't immediately poke a hole or have to make a lot of repairs to an innegra layup but not convinced.

I should add I might try to float down rapids approaching class 2 but rarely. I'd rather portage.

 

[Midwest Firecraft]

I wish I could feel comfortable I won't immediately poke a hole or have to make a lot of repairs to an innegra layup but not convinced.

I should add I might try to float down rapids approaching class 2 but rarely. I'd rather portage.

From my personal experience with IXP and watching what Ted Baird does to his Nova Craft in innegra, I can assure you it is very tough. You won't just get a hole in it, you would have to be going full speed and hit a pointed piece of granite at just the right angle, even then I don't think you would. The only reason I sold it is the weight. I don't do anything over class ll and I have found BlackLite holds up very well, is stiff, and light.

 

[Guest]

Without going to a 12’ canoe or a pack-style boat I question whether you’ll find something suitable for your purposes with sub-30” gunwales and 40 pounds or less, at least in anything other than composite. I’ve owned a couple short pack-style canoes; there are times and places where they shine. And times and places where They. Do. Not.

Maybe a Placid RapidFire in some seat configuration.

https://placidboatworks.com/our-boats/rapidfire/

I’d be leery of putting a combined 300lbs of me and gear in a 12’ canoe; even if that was within the weight limit it would lose a lot of performance. A 300lb burden is near the recommendation limit with some modern composite 14’ solos, even in wider beam.

T-formex canoes in the same make/model seem to be a bit heavier than their Royalex predecessors. There were some 14 ½ to 15 ½ Royalex solos that might come close - grabbing an old catalog for examples - the Wenonah Vagabond (14’ 6”, 28” gunwale, 45lbs in RX) or, going longer, the Wenonah Wilderness (15’ 4”, 27” gunwale, 49lbs in RX).

(Neither of those is suitable for running class II with a tripping load for me. YMMV)

We have a Royalex Wilderness; to hit that 49lb weight in a 15+ foot long 14” deep canoe Wenonah used some mighty thin, oil canning, easily dented Royalex. Not to focus on Wenonah solos, but either of those models are still available in 40-ish pound (and under) composite variations, and perhaps more available on the used market than models that have only been out for a few years.

https://wenonah.com/Canoes.aspx?id=115

Or Swift, or Nova Craft, etc. The possible choices definitely increase with modern composite laminates. Given material advances in kevlar/carbon/innegra/etc, and in vacuum bagging/infusion manufacture process, those are some tough, lightweight canoes. And you pay for what you get, up to a $100 bucks a lessened pound advantage.

From a personal perspective I’m a few years younger than you, and wish at least one of our solo canoes, most in RX, but also older glass & kevlar models, weighed 40 lbs or less. I do not see myself getting any stronger over the next decade.

There are some really canoe models knowledgeable folks here. For my own purposes I’d appreciate seeing a list of 300+ lb burden, 30” (or even, por moi, 32”) gunwales, 40-ish pound solo canoes, with sufficient depth for varied water tripping.

 

[LarrySw45]

I don't know where you hear anything good about the Old Town Pack, except that it's light and cheap, but in my opinion it's a Pig.
I have one and paddled it for about 3 years as a first canoe. It has been hanging unused in my garage for about 7 years now BTW.
12' long and 32" wide I think. It's like paddling a Pumpkin Seed. Impossible to paddle straight without a LOT of correction stroke.
I paddled mostly rivers and when I bought a Wenonah Royalex Argosy things certainly changed for the better.
Of course the Argosy is not a good flatwater boat and I bought a used Carbon Prism last year to make my first Boundary
Waters trip last year at age 74. I was about to say "Love it" but I'm not really that kind of guy. The Prism worked well for me.
That's what it was designed to do. I only wish it was a little more maneuverable. 0 Rocker and you have to give it some outside lean
to help it turn in river bends.
Larry S

 

[Waterdog]

Welcome to the forum Bill. I’m the same height and weight as you. I usually paddle a prospector with dog because it leaves plenty of spare capacity and the abundant rocker makes twisty rivers and rapids a piece of cake. My tripping prospector is wood canvas and is under 60#.

I had a “shorter” canoe in the Bell Yellowstone. I sold it because I found it’s performance suffered greatly with tripping loads. My current solos are a 15.5 x 27” bell rockstar black gold and 15’ x 27” Hemlock SRT in premium layup. 35# and 39# respectively. These boats can carry a load and maintain the agility afforded by the rocker. No problems on the twisty stuff on the Oyster R. in BW or Shingle Shanty in Whitney Wilderness in ADK. Those layups have been holding up fine on Pennsylvania whitewater.

I plan on getting IXB Phoenix for day trips on the twisty rivers of PA but don’t expect it to carry me and a tripping load. I think our “big boy “ britches might dictate either medium long and skinny or short and fat canoes. The good news is there’s a lot of manufacturers making great boats in your neck of the woods.

good luck,
barry

 

[billconner]

It gets a little overwhelming. I had not seen Placid Boat Works and Hornbeck had inegra layups last I checked and do now. So it opens up.

I'd stick with my Tranquility but just doesn't turn well enough for Adirondacks.

Throw in that if I ordered one today, might not get it till August. The Covid benefit for outdoor rec industry.

Thank you all.

 

[Waterdog]

Throw in that if I ordered one today, might not get it till August. The Covid benefit for outdoor rec industry.

Thank you all.

I tried to order a trek fat bike to tow my dog trailer on river shuttles and was told it would be backordered until November. I declined and said I could walk there and back by then.

cheers

 

[goonstroke]

If you haven't watched this Nova Craft "TuffStuff" canoe test paddle, it's entertaining and somewhat cringeworthy. TuffStuffTM is their innegra & friends layup.

There are doubtless some scenarios where a T-formex boat would survive a catastrophe that would destroy an innegra composite boat, but given that you're an experienced paddler and you don't play in Class 3+ whitewater, it would be a lot of extra weight for a low probability insurance policy.

The NFCT is on my list as well. Seems like single carrying is pretty much required, although some people do that with wheels, and in that case an ABS boat might be workable.

 

[goonstroke]

I don't know where you hear anything good about the Old Town Pack, except that it's light and cheap, but in my opinion it's a Pig.
I have one and paddled it for about 3 years as a first canoe. It has been hanging unused in my garage for about 7 years now BTW.
12' long and 32" wide I think. It's like paddling a Pumpkin Seed. Impossible to paddle straight without a LOT of correction stroke.
...

This is the year to flip unwanted boats! You might be surprised what some covid pilgrim will pay for that pig.

 

[Guest]

Throw in that if I ordered one today, might not get it till August.

The outfitters and paddlesport shops already have their spring inventory of canoes on order and being built. If you have latitude in choice of things like gunwales or hull color, and don’t want to order a canoe built to your specifications and wait ‘til August, a spring trip to the Adirondacks might be fruitful.

There is a helluva concentration of paddlesport shops in the Adirondacks, St. Regis Outfitters, Raquette River Outfitters, Blue Mountain Lake Outfitters, etc.

Mountain Man has an on-line inventory of canoes, most arriving in April, some already pre-sold (scroll down the link a bit):

http://www.mountainmanoutdoors.com/2...pre-order.html

 

[billconner]

So consensus the layups with inegra - which it seems many or most laminate canoe makers now offer - is sufficiently robust for my needs. Some, like the Nova Craft Fox, however, get as heavy as t-formex.

Less clear now than before I posted.

​​​​

 

[billconner]

Well, having cut and pasted and manipulated lists of solos in a spread sheet - 107 solos - I see these as possibly worth exploring further. I probably should delete the Adirondack, Adirondack 13.6, and Trapper as different or, pigs, if you prefer.) I could make it a separate acquisition (can't have too many canoes, right?) but hard to justify since I don't fish or hunt. I need to add specs to these. The Hornbecks are intriguing, especially the 13 if it's capacity will work. If I can loose another 20 pounds (business travel) and try to trim gear weight 10 it would Any I missed that fit? I've only paddled the Echo, Prospector, and Keewaydin, and preferred the Prospector. [TABLE="width: 380"]
[TR]
[TD]Esquif Canoes[/TD]
[TD]Adirondack[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esquif Canoes[/TD]
[TD]Echo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hornbeck[/TD]
[TD]Classic 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hornbeck[/TD]
[TD]Classic 14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northstar Canoes[/TD]
[TD]Trillium pack[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northstar Canoes[/TD]
[TD]Trillium touring[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nova Craft Canoe[/TD]
[TD]Trapper[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Placid Boatworks[/TD]
[TD]RapidFire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Placid Boatworks[/TD]
[TD]SpitFire 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Swift Canoe & Kayak[/TD]
[TD]Adirondack Pack 13.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Swift Canoe & Kayak[/TD]
[TD]Keewaydin 14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Swift Canoe & Kayak[/TD]
[TD]Prospector 14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[yknpdlr]

So many choices, both the good and the questionable. I would include both the GRB Newman designs Peeper and rambler in your list of potential choices. https://www.grbnewmandesigns.com
I also agree that the OT Pack is a pig not worthy of being with a serious canoer. I have been with a paddler in one of those and it was a painful experience.

Choices depend on what you want and how you will use it, what your future plans are, and what your skill is, or is likely to be. I am 195 lbs, 6' tall, and have paddled my 10.5' Hornbeck all over the Adirondacks. I have it mostly to take on carries bushwhacking through the woods to visit remote ponds, but have paddled at length on most of the big lakes in it also with no problem, including in big rollers while crossing Lake Champlain.

I also have a Placidboat Rapidfire as my primary solo canoe when I am not aiming to travel extra long carry distances through the woods. I have a higher than standard "highest" seat installed in my RF, since I single blade paddle with it and a high seat lets it act more like a real canoe. I really do not like to use a kayak paddle at all, although it is not practical to use a single in the smaller Hornbeck. The Hornbeck 14 is very paddleable with a single blade. I would also strongly consider the Swift Keewaydin if I were looking for another boat again. Don't settle for a boat that is too short in length and thus had less speed and performance.

 

[billconner]

Thanks.

No information on GRB Newman Designs materials on their websites. One definite need is an layup with inegra or equal. I don't kneel or lean - never have had good balance - and broke my L1 vertebrae a few years back, so not sure a pack seat is really possible. I refuse to be in a hurry. And I really like the week long plus treks. I just want to be able to turn a little easier and more than I can in my Tranquility for this area waters.

 

[Zac]

Prospectors are very popular boats and have been for a long time. You said that you test paddled a prospector 15 and felt comfortable... Were you using a double bladed paddle when you did? I do not use a double blade, perhaps someone else here has used one in a Prospector solo and can attest. I would go with the prospector 15 or 16 myself (or a shearwater). I am 5'9" 220 but the dog is 100#.

 

[yknpdlr]

Thanks.

No information on GRB Newman Designs materials on their websites. One definite need is an layup with inegra or equal. I don't kneel or lean - never have had good balance - and broke my L1 vertebrae a few years back, so not sure a pack seat is really possible. I refuse to be in a hurry. And I really like the week long plus treks. I just want to be able to turn a little easier and more than I can in my Tranquility for this area waters.

https://www.grbnewmandesigns.com/the-concept-1
The efficiency and simplicity of the design reduces production costs for a most affordable, light and tough carbon-fiber boat that demonstrates unmatched speed and handling.

Your location of Clayton is only 64 miles from GRB in Canton, NY. Gene or Johan Newman would be very happy to have you visit, or at least call if you have any questions on their canoe materials and build process.

It would not be difficult to find any number of week long treks in the Adirondacks, but you would need to traverse a few portages between waterways (more traditionally called "carries" in the Adirondacks)

Many of the canoes on your list can be outfitted with the seat style of your choice. I do not have a stock seat in my Rapidfire. Heeling to one side (leaning) is an acquired skill that greatly assists easy turning of a canoe in winding waterways. Look for canoes designed with differential rocker in the hull to turn even easier yet.

 

[Guest]

Don't settle for a boat that is too short in length and thus had less speed and performance.

Agree absolutely. Not for pure go-fast, a canoe with a higher length to waterline ratio will usually be easier to get up to and maintain whatever your paddling speed.

I’d be cautious of a canoe with a stated burden that is too close to the 300lb paddler and gear weight you mentioned. It may still have sufficient freeboard (in most conditions) but performance suffers when approaching the upper weight limit.

And at least a little rocker.

 

[billconner]

Zac - both yak paddle and straight blade.

The paddler and gear weight/capacity is tough to judge since every manufacturer seems to have their own way of doing it.

Thanks all!