• Happy Mathematics Day! ❌📐♾️

Wind + Distance = Reality Check?

Kathy - I still think the Prospector type is a very versatile canoe, and I wouldn't be without one - or at least something Prospector-ish. One thing I have found that helps when doing a river trip with others who's boats are more wind resistant than my soloed Prospector, is to offer to carry some of their gear. As long as I am getting some help from the current, getting the boat lower in the water reduces the workload from the wind. The Prospector handles the load well and actually gains some stability with the weight. It loses some responsiveness, but that's a good trade off when fighting wind.
 
...I know this is anathema to some, but against a gusty 10 mph breeze on open water I would be using a (lightweight, composite) double blade. And a long double blade at that, at least 260cm.

I can feel folks cringing at that, both the double blade, and the suggested length. To each their own; a low angle 270cm works best for me in the (wide center seat) soloized Penobscot, Explorer or Cronje. Bow backwards in a tandem I can squeak by with a 250....

If I'm in the wind in the Prospector with little or no ballast, I often find that I'm better off even standing with the pole and "kayak-stroking" than single blading on my knees or seat.
 
Dedicated solo =less skin friction Easier paddling in the wind which is an added force
Skin friction and matching paddler size and horsepower to boat is incredibly important. Read John Winters. He's at greenval.com and is one of the most prolific canoe designers
Bill Mason generally did NOT use a Prospector but did use the smaller Pal. It fit him better. He used the Prospector in whitewater
 
And it's those small pearls of wisdom that keep me coming back here

Me too! :D

Unfortunately having two canoes isn't really an option right now even though I see the benefit of it. So I will work with the other ideas that have been suggested and that will likely start to move me in the right direction. ;) Even in the wind. :cool:

yellowcanoe: I went at looked at greenval.com, wow. Just wow, those are beautiful! I haven't had the chance to go read much there yet but will when I get the chance.

The spray covers are an option to look at as things progress. Based on what I saw for pricing, and that I am at least capable with a sewing machine, I might give the DIY idea a try. That puts the project timeline starting in the fall and working on them through the winter. Which might work well since I will then have lots of opportunities to try it out.

Cheers!
Kathy
 
FW,

...at what wind speed is it no longer prudent to head out on the water? I can tell you it wasn't fun at 10-15 mph...

There has been some testing done for wind resistance on bicycles (there probably is for paddlers as well but I didn't take to time to google it out)... anyway, it takes some power to maintain headway against the wind on a bike and it seems the power being put out by a typical cyclist pedaling nonstop is about 80 watts. My guess is that paddlers put out less power since it's with the arms and torso, and pedaling a bike makes more muscle available and so more power... but let's say it's the same for both, about 80 watts over the long haul.

Wind resistance in a canoe is probably more than wind resistance on a bike, but again let's say it's the same as for "upright style" in figure 3...

grafik3.gif


https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/formulas.htm

About eighty watts of power will be able keep a bike moving at 20 km/hr, or 12.5 mph, with resistance from wind, along with rolling and drive train resistance. If that's the same for canoes, wind resistance at 12.5 mph combined with any hull/water resistance will match the paddler's power output over the long term resulting in no forward progress being made, since the combined resistance equals paddling power, over a long stretch of time.

My guess is that typical long-term paddler power will be less than 80 watts and canoe wind and water resistance will be greater on a canoe than resistances on a bike so the effect of wind on reducing or eliminating forward progress might actually occur at wind speeds lower than 12 mph.

Anyhoo, wind forecasts for those kinds of numbers might mean a rough time moving forward against the wind, unless there's current helping, or wind shadow to hide in, or wind speed is variable, so paddling stops whenever it's high and then carries on when wind speed drops. In theory, anyway... on the water anything can happen.
 
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I still think the Prospector type is a very versatile canoe, and I wouldn't be without one - or at least something Prospector-ish. One thing I have found that helps when doing a river trip with others who's boats are more wind resistant than my soloed Prospector, is to offer to carry some of their gear. As long as I am getting some help from the current, getting the boat lower in the water reduces the workload from the wind. The Prospector handles the load well and actually gains some stability with the weight. It loses some responsiveness, but that's a good trade off when fighting wind.

I agree that the Prospector is a very versatile design. Again, with emphasis on river trip and carrying enough weight to sink the hull to its intended waterline.

I don’t currently own a Prospector, but even in my big soloized tandems hauling some weight helps reduce the windage. Maybe that’s why I carry so much gear even on day trips.

Yeah, that’s it – hull performance.

The spray covers are an option to look at as things progress. Based on what I saw for pricing, and that I am at least capable with a sewing machine, I might give the DIY idea a try. That puts the project timeline starting in the fall and working on them through the winter. Which might work well since I will then have lots of opportunities to try it out.

If you want to trial test spray covers and don’t mind removing some tape residue you can cut partial bow and stern covers, leaving an open “cockpit” area, from plastic and simply tape them on just below the outwales. Pick a breezy day and try the Prospector with the covers on, and then try with them removed.

I would use some opaque plastic like an old poly tarp for the temporary cover test. Clear plastic will be greenhouse of condensation moisture on summer days.

If you decide to DIY covers ask here about material choices (nylon, poly, etc) and about how to attach the covers (snaps, hooks & lashings, Velcro). Several folks on Canoe Tripping have built their own spray covers and a search for those threads would be a good place to start investigations.

EDIT: If you want to add trial test weight to the hull water containers are a good choice. Old 1 gallon milk jugs weigh upwards of 8 lbs each and are easy to move around in the hull, even tucked way up in the bow. They won’t sink in an opps, and you can fill and empty them at the river.
 
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And it's those small pearls of wisdom that keep me coming back here
It's trivial bits collected from just gettIng old!
I try and hang out with canoe folks cause they alwa6s have something else to add to my weakening brain
I was rather surprised to find that nice red Prospector of Bill Masons in the Canadian Canoe Museum. Under a red gingham tablecloth. The canoe skin was checkered and

Orange.

Maybe images are better left alone
 
Thanks again, Robin, I so appreciate this site and all of the people you have on it. Truly appreciate the help!

I have said this before, but it bears repeating; the CanoeTripping community is remarkable for its willingness to share solid, experienced, no BS information.

No one is pushing an agenda, or convinced to the point of argument that their way is the only way. Even when we disagree or “argue” it is gentle, and often tongue-in-cheek.

My favorite response from another board was being scolded for consolidating rocks on a site with the half dozen poorly built and ill-located fire pits (each with their own dirty sock), leaving little room for tent and tarp. An unregulated mid-Atlantic area site that sees 300 days a year of local townie motor boat “camping”.

A wilderness paddler, who trips only in the far north, was thoroughly enraged by my rock moving actions, as though I was disturbing ancient First Nation artifacts, and blasted me with “It has nothing to do with tripping in the boreal. What applies in my area is universally applicable!”

That response still cracks me up, and while I respect his wilderness tripping skills and techniques, some of which have become my usual practice, I would dearly love to take him on a trip down the lower Susquehanna, out on some Carolina blackwater swamp or down in the Everglades.

It’s a big paddling universe out there, with room for all of us. Keep it kind.

The vibe on Canoe Tripping is thanks to Robin, for keeping a lid on things and fostering a sense of helpful community. Finest kind.
 
If I'm in the wind in the Prospector with little or no ballast, I often find that I'm better off even standing with the pole and "kayak-stroking" than single blading on my knees or seat.
Most of my paddling is solo in tandems and most of the time I paddle standing with a six foot paddle and I'll always be standing in a wind. I can move forward and back to get the best trim and I get more power and use more of my body. When I get tired I can always sit and I appreciate a lighter paddle and less wind resistance, but I'll always return to standing. It's a great workout too, I'm surprised more people aren't doing it with the popularity of SUP.

Steve, when you're in deep water using the pole like that can you do an effective brace?
 
@FarWest: welcome to the board. I can understand the frustration with your wind issues, as I'm in a similar situation hull-wise myself at the moment. I have to say that it sounds like you are a tough paddler.

@FrozenTripper: to add to the numbers game, I just pulled some resistance estimates off of Delftship for my current tandem. (16', 28" wl beam, 36" overall beam. Not a Prospector, but should get us in the ballpark)

At a speed of 3 knots (relative to the water), I'm getting about 16.5 watts required input for hull resistance at design load. (540#) I'm getting 11 watts at a load approximating what farwest would have been running with. (220# with paddler, gear and hull weight) This does not make any attempt to calculate wind resistance, it's just the water resistance of the hull. The greater part of the load in a headwind would in fact be coming from the wind
 
Cool discussion. Seems like you are doing great to pace a tandem for 11 miles even in calm conditions.

10-15 mph is no big deal in a dedicated solo. I remember paddling into one nice headwind in my solo Peregrine with my buddy in his SRT where the Peregrine could still punch through waves that were spitting over the bow while th SRT was blown to a standstill and could only make progress during lulls in the wind. So it seemed like the low shearline of the Peregrine helped more than it hurt. I bet Mike is right and a spray skirt would have helped both boats quite a bit.

And of course it's always important to bring your dog since they increase your momentum quite a bit.
 
Cool discussion. Seems like you are doing great to pace a tandem for 11 miles even in calm conditions.

10-15 mph is no big deal in a dedicated solo.

Presuming you meant 12-15 miles a day in a dedicated solo, no big deal. I couldn’t hit 15 mph with an Evinrude.

The 12.5 open mile race I did a few times saw the very fastest surf skis and racing hulls finish a bit of an hour and a half, so the real racers were topping out heck bent for leather at a bit over 8mph.

A more typical finish time for non-pro’s in everyday boats was around the 2:30 mark, so 5-ish MPH average over 12.5 miles.

For flat water (non-current assisted) day paddles I figure maybe 2.5 MPH over the course of 6 or 7 hour explore, including dawdle time for shore breaks and muckle ups in eddys along the way.
 
Hi Mike. I meant 10-15 mph wind speeds...and even those would be quite a challenge for 11 miles if it was a sustained headwind. On a gps I'd be lucky to get my sport solos much over 5 mph for anything but a short sprint and race canoes run me down like I'm not moving and even beginners can run me down on stand-ups.
 
So stand tall and pole ! Or Stand up and paddle with a 72-84 inch Maine Guide Paddle.
This SUP thing has been around for a hundred years. Who needs a board?
 
Hi Mike. I meant 10-15 mph wind speeds...and even those would be quite a challenge for 11 miles if it was a sustained headwind. On a gps I'd be lucky to get my sport solos much over 5 mph for anything but a short sprint and race canoes run me down like I'm not moving and even beginners can run me down on stand-ups.

Oops, I just read that wrong. 5mph about tops me out as well.

Now with a sail up. . . . .
 
So stand tall and pole ! Or Stand up and paddle with a 72-84 inch Maine Guide Paddle.

Weather warning, there's more wind up there... those guys in the white coats say 1-2 meters above the water surface can make a difference in wind speed, so those dreaded wind forecasts can be misleading close to the surface of the water.

I don't know how accurate this graph is since it wasn't created by a scientist, but the effects of wind gradient and boundary layer slowing wind over water are known to exist. There's even a formula for it, but I'm only on my fisrt coffee.

CarrGrad.gif




http://www.onemetre.net/Design/Gradient/Gradient.htm


Yeah, I agree this place is great for messing around with boats, thanks to all who add value here.

OK enough time spent fooling around, back to work...

b7da9494ca96794906f9b461d83212e2.jpg
 
Weather warning, there's more wind up there... those guys in the white coats say 1-2 meters above the water surface can make a difference in wind speed, so those dreaded wind forecasts can be misleading close to the surface of the water.

I don't know how accurate this graph is since it wasn't created by a scientist, but the effects of wind gradient and boundary layer slowing wind over water are known to exist. There's even a formula for it, but I'm only on my fisrt coffee.

CarrGrad.gif

Those of us who sail with tall rigs know this well. The higher off the water, the higher the wind speed. More advantage to those of us with single blades, skinny poles, and skinny bodies. ;)
 
So, I was thinking about the mention here of spray covers for wind resistance, and it reminded me of a recent trip on a class 3 river. One of my paddling buddies was in a MR Freedom Solo (Yes! Long stretches of continuous class 3!) He had rigged a DIY spray cover for the bow, and that thing actually shed enough water from the waves coming over the top that he didn't seem to have to bail any more than I did in my bagged Prospector. And he was not avoiding the wave trains.
 
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