Or a puddle of water on the floor. Or a small level attached to the gunwale at canoe center. Or with trim marks on your exterior bow and stern that someone else looking at the canoe can report the position of to you.
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Why are stern seats closer than bow seats to the ends of a tandem canoe?
- Thread starter Glenn MacGrady
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Or a puddle of water on the floor. Or a small level attached to the gunwale at canoe center. Or with trim marks on your exterior bow and stern that someone else looking at the canoe can report the position of to you.
I would assume they were too, but the Native Americans didn't have to figure into the design of their symmetrical hulls with no seats. I just don't think they, or the early W/C builders were as concerned about a flat trim as paddlers today. Putting the seat as far back as possible gives the best chance to get a bow light trim, which coincidently is the most comfortable position to paddle from.
Okay, and I can see a reason for a far back stern seat in a courting canoe, in which the woman would sit leaning against the front deck and facing the man in the stern. But neither of those two canoe situations have been the common ones for 100 years.
I like to have the stern seat far enough forward so that a child can comfortably sit in it facing the stern, while the adult paddles facing the stern from the bow seat backwards. This results in much more level trim while still being somewhat bow light.
Some of us like a bow light trim and some a level trim, but I don't think anyone likes a bow heavy trim. The further back your stern seat is the less likely you will be bow heavy.
lowangle al,
You mentioned "I just don't think they, or the early W/C builders were as concerned about a flat trim as paddlers today."Perhaps, but there are important differences in design and performance between a heeled Prospector-style canoe (as a proxy) and a more modern canoe designed for efficiency and speed, something like a Wenonah Jensen 18. Trim for the Prospector isn't as critical as for the Jensen, and if we consider a racing tandem, trim is even more critical. Even when a canoe is designed to carry a load, like the Wenonah Minnesota II, paying attention to trim pays dividends in efficiency and performance. It's a matter of context.
It's interesting how you can often feel when a canoe isn't responding as well as it should be and then realize that it's a bit bow heavy. But when I'm paddling into a brisk headwind I do prefer a bow heavy trim.
Edit: When I refer to trim, it's not necessarily implying a level canoe. It's more about finding the correct balance point where the canoe is performing just how you like it in the conditions you're paddling in. One of those irritating "it depends" kind of answers.
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Sometimes you do want a bow heavy trim. It depends. On lots of factors. On what you are doing: paddling forward or turning. On whether you are paddling into or with the wind. On whether you are in flat or moving water.
The general principles are:
1. The heavier end of the the canoe is the one that will "pin" into the water. The lighter end of the canoe is "loose."
2. Most canoe canoe shapes are turned most effectively by sliding a loose stern around a pinned bow.
3. The pinned end of the canoe is the one that will want to point into wind.
4. The pinned end of the canoe is the the one that will want to swing downstream in current.
Applying these principles can tell us the situations in which it is helpful to have a slightly stern (pinned) heavy or slightly bow (pinned) heavy canoe.
1. Paddling forward on windless flat water: It's helpful to be slightly stern heavy so that the stern will pin, which makes the canoe harder to turn and hence easier to forward stroke with minimal correction. Thought of differently, the pinned stern is sort of acting as a rudder. Paddling forward is the most common touring situation for both solo and tandem paddlers, so for all these times it can be helpful to be slightly bow light.
2. Making turns, especially sharp turns as on a twisty creek: It's helpful to go slightly bow heavy to pin the bow and loosen the stern, which will make the stern sliding turn much easier and sharper. This is often called "pitching" the canoe. When solo, you can most quickly pitch the canoe into a bow pin by simply moving forward off your centralized seat and onto your knees. In a tandem canoe, this would be clumsier and take more time: both paddlers would lift forward onto their knees and maybe toss some gear forward.
3. Paddling in strong winds: If you want to paddle into the wind, you go bow heavy so as to pin the bow. If you want to paddle with the wind, you go stern heavy to pin the stern. In a small solo canoe you can do this by shifting your body weight forward or backward, or by using a sliding seat to do so. If you are in a tandem canoe, you will probably have to move heavy gear fore or aft.
4. Paddling in strong river currents and whitewater: Generally, when you are paddling faster than the current or at current speed, you want to be stern heavy so the stern pins and the loose bow points downstream. However, there are times when you want to quickly and dynamically go bow heavy.
- One such situation is when eddying out. You shift your weight forward to pin the bow in the eddy and allow the loose stern swing around on the eddy line.
- A second situation is when peeling out from an eddy into the current. You want to do a similar thing: pin the bow in the current you are entering so it swings downstream, after which you immediately switch to a stern heavy position.
- A third situation is when you are back ferrying against the current. You want the bow to be heavy so it remains the downstream end while you are ferrying laterally across the river. If you are stern heavy, the stern will want to swing downstream, you will go out of control, and end up with the canoe going backwards downstream.
All these dynamic and changing trim shifts in whitewater are most easily done in a short solo canoe by body weight shifts from a centralized seat. A tandem canoe will have to do the best they can with their more limited ability to change trim by body shifts, or by quickly tossing a gear pack fore or aft. Highly rockered hulls are so naturally spinnable that they are much easier to turn at any time and in any direction in whitewater even without trim shifts.
These two videos do a good job of explaining the general principles, but they don't address paddling in wind. Note also, in UK lingo "eddying out" is called "breaking in" and "peeling out" is called "breaking out."
Placing the stern seat as far back as possible would seem to accomplish a number of desirable goals. First, it maximizes the amount of stuff you can carry in the wide part of the canoe. Second, correction strokes are more efficient towards the stern. Third, it permits steering by extending the paddle aft of the canoe and using it as a rudder in moving water. Fourth, it doesn't require the stern paddler to sit to one side or the other of a wide canoe in order to make an efficient forward stroke. As already observed, it isn't practical to put the bow seat as far forward because of the need to provide leg/kneeling space for the bow paddler. As for trim, the bow paddler can always move forward to kneel if a bow heavy trim or more neutral trim is desired.
lowangle al,
You mentioned "I just don't think they, or the early W/C builders were as concerned about a flat trim as paddlers today."
Perhaps, but there are important differences in design and performance between a heeled Prospector-style canoe (as a proxy) and a more modern canoe designed for efficiency and speed, something like a Wenonah Jensen 18. Trim for the Prospector isn't as critical as for the Jensen, and if we consider a racing tandem, trim is even more critical. Even when a canoe is designed to carry a load, like the Wenonah Minnesota II, paying attention to trim pays dividends in efficiency and performance. It's a matter of context.
It's interesting how you can often feel when a canoe isn't responding as well as it should be and then realize that it's a bit bow heavy. But when I'm paddling into a brisk headwind I do prefer a bow heavy trim.
I'm sure that specialized hulls can be more sensitive to how they are trimmed. And in a headwind, I have had to go bow heavy, but only when really windy. Also like Glenn mentioned there are times in moving water when you want to be bow heavy. My ww style consisted of a lot of back ferries and going slower than the current so I always try for stern light trim.
I'm not married to any particular seat or position in the boat and can and do change positions at a moments notice to get the trim I want.
The trim problem that I find hardest to overcome is when you have a really heavy bow partner, and the further back seat position helps.
Good points. In addition to the bow paddler moving forward I usually just move forward in the stern. This will change the trim without affecting the bouyancy of the bow is as much.
And then there’s the “ignorance is bliss crowd” of which im a long standing member. We don’t know whether we should wind our butt or scratch our watch when the subject of trim comes up! Typically we just scoot around some or paddle harder or grumble a lot when it’s not going our way, while still enjoying the outing and doing our best to look like you guys!
I think this is it. At least from a traditional perspective. Canoes were work boats, not recreational watercraft, and trim can be accomplished by how you stow cargo. Traditions die hard.
I usually think of the cargo area as the space between the thwarts. I guess you could move a thwart back, but there is probably a reason it is where it is. Even if you don't increase the cargo area you will have more leg room with the further back position. It may make the difference between being able to straighten out your legs or not. I know that in my Bell Seliga with its forward seat position I can't straighten my legs out with a full load and it actually feels a little cramped.
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Well, the obvious answer it the bow paddler needs leg room.
There is probably an advantage to moving the weight aft, for trim, especially if it's an asymmetrical hull.
Having the stern paddler well aft opens up the main cargo area. Let's you bring that 50 quart cooler.
See post #8 above.
I have a particularly diffiicult time as bow paddler, especially when in races, such as the Yukon, when a full load of gear is required. bags of gear and food is stuffed everywhere, including in space normally reserved for my legs and feet.
I wanted to check waterline with a load for adding lining holes to a tandem once. Gave the wife a magic marker and had her reach down and mark the waterline while I did the same. Now, that method doesn’t work too well for the middle due to the rocker, hull shape, etc, but it will give you the ends, and you can sorta extrapolate the middle of the hull. A kid with a 3rd magic marker in the middle would be ideal.
Nice decked canoe.
