What will be the effect of electric vehicles on canoe tripping?

[Glenn MacGrady]

Avoiding politics, as the site rules require, we can still discuss any facts, or assumed facts, or supposed facts, or projected facts, or false facts related to electric vehicles as those facts or "facts" may affect the essential transportation component of canoe tripping.

I will never own an electric vehicle in my remaining lifetime, but I wonder about a whole host of questions. Especially since my primary mode of canoe tripping over my life has been to go on monumental road trips with my boats—up to 10,000 miles, yes indeed—stopping in various places around North America to dip my paddles.

Could I afford the purchase price of an electric vehicle?

Especially the purchase price for the heavy full-size vans I prefer (and the pick-up trucks MANY other paddlers prefer), which likely will require a humongous and expensive battery?

What will be the charging costs for long trips vs. gasoline or diesel?

Can I tolerate frequent charging stops or long charging times?

Especially if I pull commercial canoe trailers or a motor home on my canoe trips, will these electric vehicles have sufficient pulling power?

I've never followed the details of electric vehicles much because, as I've said, I'm too old to care for my practical life. But others of you should and probably do care, so what are your non-political thoughts on these factual questions?

 

[Clint]

I've thought about this a little Glenn. Even contemplated on buying an electric truck the last time I bought one. Went down a scenario of planning out a trip pulling my little teardrop camper on a short trip. And the cost of buying one that would do the scenario of said camping trip along with all the canoe trips with my 120 mile round trip for work 5 days a week. Plus just living in Texas anywhere you to go is far! I couldn't afford the truck. Or "want" to extend the trip out long enough for recharging.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I do not think that I will have an electric vehicle for long trips in my lifetime either. An electric for around town does look like a possibility. I figure that I will have another twenty-five years or so of potential driving, and the technology is improving, so I will not put any of that in stone. We have to remember that when cars first became available, fuel was sold in containers at pharmacies and at some hardware shops. There was no organized system of “gas stations” until the demand due to the number of cars reached a critical mass. It then became commercially viable.

We are still at an equivalent stage with electrics as we were with gas cars in the decade of the 1900s. As the number of electric cars increase, battery and charging technologies improve, electric infrastructure and generation increase, we may see the electric cars evolve into the dominant form of transport. I think the biggest challenge will be in the generation and transmission of electricity. Currently the US does not have the generating capacity to replace over 250,000,000 gas vehicles which are currently our roads with electric vehicles. And for pollution, I can say my gas vehicle gets X number of gallons per mile of gas; with an electric car in the United States the question is “How many miles per ton of coal”. Until we do some major changes in our electricity production, we cannot say that our electric cars are non-polluting. It just happens at the electric plant instead of under our hood.

For the short term, I think that we may evolve into a dual fuel system (or into a triple fuel system if the issues with hydrogen are solved) in the US: Electrics for short trips and petroleum-based vehicles for long travel. Then with the next big jump in technology, be it fusion power generation, ultra-quick chargers, replaceable batteries, or 1000-mile battery life, electrics may become the dominant vehicle on the road. I wouldn’t mind driving one long distance then.

 

[yknpdlr]

Just one of my concerns is that here in northern NY were I frequently see winter temperatures of -20F or even approaching -40 on some mornings. How well will a battery vehicle tolerate those temps, and how cold will I have to keep the cabin versus gettting a few more miles out of the battery?

Apart from winter concerns, my canoe race team and I traveled to the Yukon River races (five times so far), some 3,000 miles up and back again. It can be done in 4-5 days (or less) with drivers taking turns at the wheel and frequent stops at gas stations. Until EV charging stations become as common on every road as gasoline pumps are now, how long will I have to wait in line to get my turn at a charger? What happens when I run out of charge on the road? I see vehicles with extra gas cans strapped on their vehicle now, but I doubt they will be able to carry and switch to extra battery packs. It is not as easy as hitching a ride to the nearest filling station and gabbing a plastic portable can of gas to carry back to my car so I can drive a few miles to the station. If I have limited daily range, how much more will it cost me in hotel rooms for the extra travel days?

I really cannot imagine farmers, much less heavy equipment operators and highway maintenance equipment managers, ditching their heavy gas/diesel tractors, excavators and bull dozers and buying them all new as EV.

 

[Keeled Over]

Really long extension cords.

 

[billconner]

Obviously today's technology and infra structure does not make full electrification possible, but considering how far it's come in last 15 years - 2008 was Tesla's first production year - I can imagine that full electrification in my lifetime - 15 or 20 years (if I'm that lucky). I think Norway now sells more ev than ice already.

I kind of think PHEVs would be a better short term solution.

 

[MrPoling]

I think this is pretty straight forward. Long distance car trips, greater than 200 miles, to get to isolated canoe tripping spots, are not great use cases for pure battery electric vehicles (BEV) Recharging will remain a logistical challenge.

Daily driving is an excellent use for BEV, at least for most people. I'd be fine, even prefer, a BEV.

As a 3 car family it isn't problematic for us to have a BEV and a ICE.

 

[JCH_Ski]

I really cannot imagine farmers, much less heavy equipment operators and highway maintenance equipment managers, ditching their heavy gas/diesel tractors, excavators and bull dozers and buying them all new as EV

This reminds me that the manufacturer of the groomer our trails club uses on the ski trails said that, starting next year, all models will be electric - with about a 4 hour battery life. On a really good day, it takes 4-1/2 - 5 hours to do a full groom. We can neither afford nor house 2 big machines.

Personally, I would love an EV…..someday. But they have a long way to go before they are ready for prime time. If they can figure out how to extend battery life, as well as longevity, use clean energy sources for the electricity…
If I lived in a city, it would make sense. But I don’t. And as stated, long trips become a whole lot longer, at this point. The technology needs to advance quite a bit more. It will get there.

Interesting that this topic came up today - I was just reading through a big argument about it on social media this morning. It was very…..social media-ish. It devolved rapidly.

 

[Boreal Birch]

Never going to replace the horse, mule or for heavy hauling, the oxen.

 

[billconner]

In 1901 Wilbur Wright said: “Not within a thousand years will man ever fly”

 

[MrPoling]

I really cannot imagine farmers, much less heavy equipment operators and highway maintenance equipment managers, ditching their heavy gas/diesel tractors, excavators and bull dozers and buying them all new as EV.

I think this one's really interesting.

The tractors used for all-day operations will probably stay diesel or similar.

But the barns and storage buildings around a farm are a great place for solar. Things like the side by side utility vehicles, the pickups, etc, Electric is fine or better for them.

Here in the Piedmont of North Carolina we have mainly smaller farms, lots of them where the owners have other jobs. These folks could put in a solar installation and power their house, utility vehicles, and their daily driver. I think it won't be long before solar catches on big.

 

[Gerald]

Upgraded my Outback in 2022 from an 2014 Outback. Would have made an EV choice had it not being for the canoe trips. I'm sure eventually the coming technologies plus the availability of more recharging sources will permit long hauls to the canoe routes but for the moment I sadly admit I'm shamefully a carbon dioxide culprit.

 

[Sweetfancymoses]

I could envision a plug-in hybrid using e-fuels where recharging is not an option.

 

[yellowcanoe]

With most of Northen Maine in canoe country dependent on diesel generators for power I see no EV in my future.. As it is we now have to carry extra fuel in containers. And we are driving to Labrador... don't see charging stations though Manic 5 would be a good one

For a daily commuter car of course an EV.

 

[stripperguy]

I recently became unretired to return to the R & D company that I cofounded.
We have been developing components in support of the coming hydrogen economy since 2005.
There is much effort from US government agencies to expedite the mass use of hydrogen.
The range issues faced by current EV’s will be non existent in the future, or so we hope.
In the meantime I will continue driving my 35mpg CRV to canoe trips…

 

[MyKneesHurt]

I may be in the minority, but I'm optimistic about the quality, availability, and affordability of EVs. (I may also be younger than most on this website.) The industry is essentially a nascent one. It will be a great long while before gas-powered cars are phased out, or even the minority, so any sort of long-term apocalyptic gloom-and-doom may be a bit premature.
Will there be hiccups? I'm sure there will be. Will there be technological breakthroughs and beneficial policies towards producing EVs that drive prices down and quality up? I would bet on it.

 

[NikonF5user]

I think this one's really interesting.

The tractors used for all-day operations will probably stay diesel or similar.

But the barns and storage buildings around a farm are a great place for solar. Things like the side by side utility vehicles, the pickups, etc, Electric is fine or better for them.

Here in the Piedmont of North Carolina we have mainly smaller farms, lots of them where the owners have other jobs. These folks could put in a solar installation and power their house, utility vehicles, and their daily driver. I think it won't be long before solar catches on big.

I've actually long thought that agriculture is ripe for electrification, it seems the torque of electric motors exceeds that of gas motors. More power, simpler technology, and reduced expenses. All sound like positives to me. With respect to tripping however, it is challenging to imagine getting to a distant put-in destination and back, with potentially weeks on the water, on a single charge. On the flip side, if the car is going to be stationary outdoors for weeks on end while we are out paddling, I'd be surprised if there isn't some sort of solar trickle charge apparatus that is going to become far more common in the very near future. Undoubtedly not enough to go any great distance, but perhaps enough to get to the nearest charging station...

 

[JCH_Ski]

I've actually long thought that agriculture is ripe for electrification, it seems the torque of electric motors exceeds that of gas motors. More power, simpler technology, and reduced expenses. All sound like positives to me.

I‘m not so sure. Not yet. Maybe for part-time smaller-scale farmers. I grew up on a farm (grain only, 440 acres, which was a full-time+ job for one guy) in the late 60s to the mid-80s. Dad would be out of the house before I woke up, and during planting and harvest he would be putting equipment away and coming in for dinner after dark. When I was little, I remember not even seeing him for long periods of time. As electric vehicles are today, that would not have worked. He did not have the time to stop in the middle of the day and wait for the tractor or combine to charge. And the weather - it would be great if you could only charge while you have downtime (rain, etc), but you go out when you can, and you come in when you have to. Some days you are pushing hard to get as much done as you can before the weather changes. And those are some long days!

Also, we all know that modern cars are far more complex than they used to be. A tractor is a machine that has to be serviceable by the farmer - he can’t just take it to the shop and get a loaner. I’ve been away from that life for a very long time, and I don’t know how much more complicated farm machinery has become over all these years- I’m sure it’s a lot, but not sure it’s at the level of an EV.

Apologies for latching onto the farming side of this, and not the paddling side . It has struck a chord.

The solar trickle charger idea is a good one. In fact, we have a small plug-in solar panel for our tiny little camper. It hasn’t been thoroughly tested in cloudy, rainy, tree-covered conditions, and it’s really just for the led lights and electric cooler, but people have larger portable arrays for long boondocking trips. So charging a car battery should be possible, if the array were big enough.

 

[DougK]

I’ve been away from that life for a very long time, and I don’t know how much more complicated farm machinery has become over all these years- I’m sure it’s a lot, but not sure it’s at the level of an EV.

oh it's a lot worse - the machinery is full of proprietary software, and you're not allowed to repair your own tractor as a result. The push back on this has just started, CO passed a Right to Repair bill this month.
The electric pickups seem like a good idea for farming actually - charge every night, and could easily haul stuff around the farm. Plus, the electric cars tend to be very reliable as electric motors are well understood and highly evolved.

The electric F-150 claims to be able to tow 10 000lbs. Early reports suggest that cuts the range to 100 miles or less, so it would be utterly impractical to tow anything substantial on a longer trip.
A friend has a Tesla SUV, we've travelled together Denver to Grand Junction. My conclusion is I'd have to be retired to have an electric car, that's the only way I'd have time enough to do trips out of town. Searching for and waiting on charging stations takes an inordinate time.

my plan was to get a Ford Maverick hybrid, 40mpg for a pickup truck. But they are unobtainium.. orders for 2023 opened Sept 15 2022 and closed on the 21st, I did not manage to get an order in. Deliveries on those orders are likely to take until 2024. I hope to get an order in this year then nurse the 2004 Sport Trac along for another couple of years until the order arrives..

 

[yknpdlr]

My daughter had a Prius for several years. During that time she saved a ton of money on (not buying) gasoline. But at year 8, as was expected, it required a complete battery change. All the dollars she saved on gas over the years were needed to pay for the necessary battery upgrade. She now enjoys driving a Subaru Ascent.