What are you reading?

[ppine]

Fitz,
As a forester, I can tell you that there is only one place in the world that believes the mumbo jumbo of Suzanne Simard. That is the U of British Columbia.
Trees are in constant competition for nutrients, water, light and growing space.

 

[ppine]

Margaret Murie, "Two in the Far North"
This book does a great job of describing growing up in Fairbanks around 1911 before cars. Travel by horse drawn sleighs, dog teams and steamships. Life in the remote Eskimo and Indian villages and travel in the remote bush for months at a time. Very well written. Olaus Murie was one great wildlife biologist.

 

[Mason]

Margaret Murie, "Two in the Far North"
This book does a great job of describing growing up in Fairbanks around 1911 before cars. Travel by horse drawn sleighs, dog teams and steamships. Life in the remote Eskimo and Indian villages and travel in the remote bush for months at a time. Very well written. Olaus Murie was one great wildlife biologist.

I knew Mardy in Moose, WY in the 1990s, before here death in 2003. Delightful woman, and instrumental in the development and passing of the Wilderness Act. We used Olaus's old elk research cabins in the backcountry of the Tetons for sheep surveys. There's a lot of important conservation history down there. Luckily, my daughter got to meet Mardy and got a signed copy of "Two in the Far North".

 

[Boatman53]

Speaking of the north, dog teams, steamships and the gold rush, an entertaining mostly true book is called ‘Argonaut’ by Honoré Morrow. It recounts the tales of my wife’s great grandmother heading to the Yukon with her 7year old son. When I say mostly true, the one change we know if is her husband didn’t die as in the book, he abandoned them.
Long out of print, try the library.
Jim


And a pic of the two of them with their dog.

 

[Benson Gray]

As a forester, I can tell you that there is only one place in the world that believes the mumbo jumbo of Suzanne Simard. That is the U of British Columbia.

That part of the world seems to have a number of university professors promoting unusual ideas. The University of Victoria has one whose writings generated an article titled "Canoes Reek of Genocide, Theft and White Privilege, Says Canadian Professor." See the link below for more details. Much of this was written many years ago so several of the links have expired.

Benson

Beware, canoes may soon be politically incorrect...

The article at http://heatst.com/culture-wars/white-people-in-canoes-yes-canoes-reek-of-cultural-appropriation-says-canadian-professor/ titled "Canoes Reek of Genocide, Theft and White Privilege, Says Canadian Professor" and repeated at other international news sources may indicate that canoes...

www.wcha.org

 

[PaddlingPitt]

Fitz,
As a forester, I can tell you that there is only one place in the world that believes the mumbo jumbo of Suzanne Simard. That is the U of British Columbia.
Trees are in constant competition for nutrients, water, light and growing space.

I taught Range Management and Grassland Ecology in the Faculty of Agricultural Sciences at the University of British Columbia from 1975 to 2002. Forestry undergraduate students were required to take my Range Management class. Ms Simard was one of those students. She was one of the best students ever, serious and hard working. No indication of feel-good flightiness. I have not read her work, and am not likely to at this stage in my life. I have to admit that I find the premise of her book, unlikely, but I assume she has data that supports her conclusion. She wouldn’t just make it up, would she? Not the Ms Simard I remember.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I just finished, "Finding the Mother Tree", by Suzanne Simard. I gotta say I look at the woods differently now.

As a forester, I can tell you that there is only one place in the world that believes the mumbo jumbo of Suzanne Simard. That is the U of British Columbia.
Trees are in constant competition for nutrients, water, light and growing space.

I assume she has data that supports her conclusion. She wouldn’t just make it up, would she?

I haven't read the book and probably won't, but this exchange by knowledgeable members caught my interest. I'd like to know what Simard's data are because in the following short video she sounds like she's just projecting some sort of New Age-ist anthropomorphism onto trees.

 

[ppine]

I knew Mardy in Moose, WY in the 1990s, before here death in 2003. Delightful woman, and instrumental in the development and passing of the Wilderness Act. We used Olaus's old elk research cabins in the backcountry of the Tetons for sheep surveys. There's a lot of important conservation history down there. Luckily, my daughter got to meet Mardy and got a signed copy of "Two in the Far North".

Very cool Mason. The community of wildlife biologists is tight knit. I have worked with lots of them. I used to live in Laramie and did some wildlife surveys in several states. I have worked with some guys that knew the Craighead Brothers. I met the grad student driving the orange Jeep Wagoneer in the famous grizz scene.

 

[ppine]

I taught Range Management and Grassland Ecology in the Faculty of Agricultural Sciences at the University of British Columbia from 1975 to 2002. Forestry undergraduate students were required to take my Range Management class. Ms Simard was one of those students. She was one of the best students ever, serious and hard working. No indication of feel-good flightiness. I have not read her work, and am not likely to at this stage in my life. I have to admit that I find the premise of her book, unlikely, but I assume she has data that supports her conclusion. She wouldn’t just make it up, would she? Not the Ms Simard I remember.

Pitt. Excellent. I have spent more time in my life studying range ecoystems than forests. Mine reclamation was a specialty. I am happy that you had a positive view of Ms. Simard. I have seen no data. I agree with your assessment that it is a little late to start over and believe that forest trees are not in competition but all trying to help each other. Mother trees are nurse trees. I think not.

 

[ppine]

I haven't read the book and probably won't, but this exchange by knowledgeable members caught my interest. I'd like to know what Simard's data are because in the following short video she sounds like she's just projecting some sort of New Age-ist anthropomorphism onto trees.

Well put Glenn. New Age-ist anthropomorphism is money. I have seen no data. It is amazing that this book has gained so much traction. Lay people just sort of want to believe that Nature is cooperative and gentle and supports the weakest members in an ecosystem. Any scientist worth his Filson's knows that is rarely true, especially in times of scarcity, which is most of the time.

 

[PaddlingPitt]

I haven't read the book and probably won't, but this exchange by knowledgeable members caught my interest. I'd like to know what Simard's data are because in the following short video she sounds like she's just projecting some sort of New Age-ist anthropomorphism onto trees.

I tried to watch the video. Couldn’t take more than a minute. Does this make me a stuck in the mud, old fossil. No. I was already a stuck in the mud old fossil long before Dr. Simard’s book and video.

 

[Odyssey]

Mycorrhizal networks, allelopathy, and stress signaling are not hard to grasp and accept. The issue has been, and remains, kin recognition.
Also, unfortunately, anthropomorphic language lessens the seriousness of science (IMO), but is often used to help the general public understand the subject matter, but I find that discouraging.
Having said that, I am not going to flame her. I'd love to see her data too. I wouldn't doubt it's solid, but that doesn't mean it has been widely accepted in the community. I'm assuming (rightly or wrongly, I haven't read her book) that her writing style and language might've been geared towards a less dry science tome and towards a more popular easy reading book. I have not read it, but wouldn't mind borrowing it.

 

[Mason]

Very cool Mason. The community of wildlife biologists is tight knit. I have worked with lots of them. I used to live in Laramie and did some wildlife surveys in several states. I have worked with some guys that knew the Craighead Brothers. I met the grad student driving the orange Jeep Wagoneer in the famous grizz scene.

My work partner and I immobilized a black bear in Frank's yard. I have a pic showing it with Frank watching in the background. Frank was local, and his brother was in Missoula at the time.

 

[Gamma1214]

In my youth, we always sought out the "mother tree" (and all of her mature progeny) as they produced more board feet per tankful in the old Husqvarna.

I've known many people who treat animals as if they are capable of human thoughts/emotions (often to the detriment of both human & animal) but this is the first that I've seen someone project their personal traumas onto a plant. I feel badly for whatever events in her life prompted such silliness (as she alludes to in the video) but the local terminology is for that behavior is bat(crap) crazy.

Back to topic, I'm reading the FAA's study guide for a commercial drone pilot's license. It's certainly not Tom Clancy, Louis L'Amour or John Grisham.

 

[ppine]

Mycorrhizal networks, allelopathy, and stress signaling are not hard to grasp and accept. The issue has been, and remains, kin recognition.
Also, unfortunately, anthropomorphic language lessens the seriousness of science (IMO), but is often used to help the general public understand the subject matter, but I find that discouraging.
Having said that, I am not going to flame her. I'd love to see her data too. I wouldn't doubt it's solid, but that doesn't mean it has been widely accepted in the community. I'm assuming (rightly or wrongly, I haven't read her book) that her writing style and language might've been geared towards a less dry science tome and towards a more popular easy reading book. I have not read it, but wouldn't mind borrowing it.

I first studied fungal hyphae and their beneficial relationship with forest trees in 1975. It is a well known phenomenon by this time, and there is nothing new about it. Allelopathy mostly describes the ability of plants to out compete other species by exuding substances to discourage their colonization. Stress signaling is a new one on me. Never heard of the concept. Plants can signal stress in all kinds of ways, but the point is that they are on their own. Other plants are not coming to their rescue.

It is rare to find a group of people like this on any forum, that have reacted in careful calculated ways to the thesis proposed by Dr Simard. I spend a lot to time on forums talking with people about forestry. This group gets my highest rating.

 

[Fitz]

ppine - Have you read the book? I too hesitated to read it because I had heard some of the arguments. I will say, after having actually read the book, I do look at the forest differently.

 

[ppine]

Fitz,
No. I have not read this book. I will not read it. Paddling Pitt a fellow forester, already alluded to the idea that in order to believe this line of thinking we have to unlearn a lifetime of believing in competition between forest trees. It is too late to start over because one person in Canada believes that trees help each other.

 

[Fitz]

Although she did not mention this, but forests have evolved over hundreds of millions of years. Maybe, just maybe, they are more complex than we give them credit for.

Like I said, I really hesitated to read the book. Much of her material has undergone extensive peer review. I did learn something.

 

[Odyssey]

Thanks for the recommendation Fitz. I said " I have not read it, but wouldn't mind borrowing it." I said borrowing it because I'm in the midst of a bookshelf purge under the watchful eye of SWMBO. This title will go on my list, and no doubt make for some interesting reading. Thanks again.

ps After some light internet browsing, thanks to the handy search engine algorithm, I've gone back thru years of Nature, and Science journals, as well as various other papers for a better understanding. These I've bookmarked for a late night dive into biogeography and genetics. My education remains incomplete and my memory sketchy, so all this is way above my pay grade. But it is fascinating stuff nevertheless.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

What little I know about trees makes me worse than dangerously ignorant. I do understand that the root systems in forests can be connected by some sort of fungal networks and that the roots and leaves of trees can emit certain chemicals under some situations of stress. However, facts in any field must be interpreted.

Just judging Dr. Simard by the interpretive language and vocabulary she uses in the YouTube clip—"communication", "constant conversation", "caring society", "helping each other out", "like us", "their relationships", "healing their families and communities", "we evolved from these trees", "they have intelligence and wisdom", "they can teach us", etc.—is so radically anthropomorphic that she sounds more like a posturing poet than a scientist to me.

Maybe she provides objective data couched in more inductive or deductive scientific logic in her book, with more modest and less agenda-driven rhetorical language. All that said, I can certainly share her respect and love for the forest and wish to preserve it as wisely as possible.