Tips on float bag installation

[Guest]

I ask the CTN braintrust how one might effectively and aesthetically attach bag cage lines to the carbon/kevlar fabric over foam infused rails of the boats I'm now looking at.

Effectively and aesthetically, hummm.

Maybe something you suggested earlier in this thread, Northwater loop track anchors glued in the hull under the inwales.

http://northwater.com/collections/accessories/products/loop-track-anchor

I think I have seen those loop anchors less ugly colors. All black, or at least with a black vinyl pad that wouldn’t look as ugly.

If not I have some pre-made webbing loops I can mail you.

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

So you make your attachment webbing loops pink but wear black fuzzy crocs? You got your priorities loosely lubricated, brotha. Flop that sheet.

 

[Guest]

So you make your attachment webbing loops pink but wear black fuzzy crocs? You got your priorities loosely lubricated, brotha. Flop that sheet.

It takes a bad arsed paddler to use pink webbing loops in his canoe. Which probably explains why the ones in my boats are all boring black.

To Glenn’s question about attaching bag lines to composite rails, I would be hesitant to start drilling P-clip holes every six inches under such an inwale with assurances that the holes will not cause structural weakness in the gunwales, or at least no more structural weakness than with aluminum or vinyl gunwales.

Plus it is hard enough drilling 20 holes for bag & gear cages. Add another 45+ for a spray cover. Yikes, 65 new holes.

(If you plan a spray cover you can make some holes do double duty)

That is one reason I would shy away from composite gunwales, even with the 5 lb weight savings. I know how to outfit aluminum and vinyl trimmed boats, and drilling simply a couple dozen holes cage holes in a brand new 3K+ carbon techy wonder would require some liquid courage.

Repairing or replacing a pin damaged composite gunwale would likely be beyond my skill set. Not just “likely”.

My concerns about weakening the structural integrity, or potentially allowing water into the gunwale’s foam core, by drilling holes and using outfitting-ubiquitous pop rivets through P—clips, webbing, Clipper D’s or etc may be completely baseless.

There are enough composite gunwaled canoes from different manufacturers that those basic outfitting questions must have been answered. What does Swift or Colden recommend?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Canotrouge's idea of a daisy chained string is very clever. However, I wouldn't trust myself to do the mini-patches of Kevlar. That would require some sort of fancy tools, such as a mixing stick, and I can't even put peanut butter on bread without dribbling it.

To create bag cage attachments, I could probably use the device I used on most of my early canoes with wooden gunwales, the simple eye screw:

They could probably be screwed right into the infused gunwale and even removed without much of a hole showing. Maybe they have plastic or nylon ones.

Most likely, I wouldn't use a bag cage at all, since they are completely unnecessary. I come from the days when canoe flotation was an inflated tire tube jammed under the seats of a tandem canoe. Sue Burgess set technical innovation standards when she used a hundred empty plastic bottles stuffed in a net bag, affixed in the ends of the canoe.

Modern end bags usually all have grommets or loops at each of the three corners. Hence, all you have to do for moderate bag needs is to affix each of those three corners to the hull. That can be done with two small D rings in the chines with the bag nose attached to the grab handles or deck. I'd use the plastic base D rings from Clipper Canoe I showed earlier in the thread. They are unobtrusive. A third D ring could be placed on the keel line between the two in the chines, so a middle restraining line could be run from the grab handle to this middle ring.

These D rings would be useful for gear tie down in the VAST majority of circumstances when the infused boat is bagless. Hey . . . I ain't taking a $3000-$4000 28 pound canoe down Rock River Gorge. In fact, I ain't taking $3000-$4000 anywhere, even if I could find it. Deals are out there, somewhere. But I do crave a 26-28 lb. kneeling solo canoe that can handle tripping loads.

 

[Guest]

Canotrouge's idea of a daisy chained string is very clever. However, I wouldn't trust myself to do the mini-patches of Kevlar. That would require some sort of fancy tools, such as a mixing stick, and I can't even put peanut butter on bread without dribbling it.

Glenn, Chunky is less dribbly, especially in summer temps.

I would suggest using G/flex, small lengths of one inch s-glass tape and some peel ply. I’ll send you a mixing stick, plastic cocktail cup and tiny paintbrushes, but no way am I drilling dozens of questionable holes in a carbon inwale.

To create bag cage attachments, I could probably use the device I used on most of my early canoes with wooden gunwales, the simple eye screw:

dang Glenn, I’m glad to see you finally started drinking again. You may already want to cut back just a touch.

Sue Burgess set technical innovation standards when she used a hundred empty plastic bottles stuffed in a net bag, affixed in the ends of the canoe.

There is that solution. I guess if you can find a triangular mesh bag you could save up your Diet Dr. Pepper bottles. Apparently the aesthetically pleasing part of floatation has been discontinued from consideration.

My father preferred sheets of Styrofoam glued together, cut to shape and covered in latex paint. Those panels of blue insulation foam are still cheap at Home Depot, and you can carve them to size with a rusty Mora knife. Now that is aesthetically pleasing. And squeaky.

How about this, a series of these, glued under the inwale to be float bag caged or gear webbing strapped at your desired locations. I really don’t need a webbing loop every freaking 2 inches as with the daisy chain anchors. I think I could get away with one loop every six or eight inches.

http://northwater.com/collections/d-rings-anchor-rings/products/1-inch-lightweight-no-d-ring-anchor

Maybe glued in every ten or twelve inches. Run a length of of cord through the webbing anchors on each side under gunwale, and use cage line or gear straps across the hull? The webbing anchor + linear line would double your potential lacing or tie down locations under the inwale (with no drilled holes).

I have used those webbing anchor pads in some canoe applications; they work well and avoid the fugly plastic or SS D-ring.





This may be a silly question. I haven’t bought a new canoe in years, but is there a warranty period on a newly sold canoe? Is it voided if you drill a crapload of holes in the gunwales or hull?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

s-glass tape and some peel ply

Does this mean the tape would stick on the hull by itself before I slop on the epoxy?

What does peel ply do?

I think those red webbing North Water D pads are fuglier than small plastic D rings. Also fugly are Mike Yee's blue vinyl pads, though he does use acceptable black webbing. Come to think of it, he never returned my email asking for info about his anchor pads.

 

[Guest]

Does this mean the tape would stick on the hull by itself before I slop on the epoxy?

Not that kinda tape, Fiberglass “tape” is simply a length or roll of fiberglass with seamed (selvage) edges. Instead of cutting long strips of cloth with frayed edges the cloth “tape” needs only a cut at the narrow ends. Not adhesive, still needs epoxy application.

You can find E-glass tape in width from 1 inch to four inch. And bias weave stuff. I am teasing you with the 1 inch S-glass stuff, which was an aerospace product that is no longer available.

What does peel ply do?

The sewn, no-fray seamed selvage edge on glass tape swells into a proud knuckle rasper when epoxied unless compressed under peel ply. You can sand that tall, sharp edge off after the epoxy cures, or eliminate it by compressing release treated peel ply overtop the tape. Peel ply also tends to level out sloppy epoxy coats and eliminate amine blush.

I think those red webbing North Water D pads are fuglier than small plastic D rings. Also fugly are Mike Yee's blue vinyl pads, though he does use acceptable black webbing. Come to think of it, he never returned my email asking for info about his anchor pads.

I know I have seen skinnier black vinyl pad multi-loop anchors, although a Google search has not turned them up.

But again, I really don’t need an anchor loop every couple inches.

 

[pblanc]

Does this mean the tape would stick on the hull by itself before I slop on the epoxy?

What does peel ply do?

I think those red webbing North Water D pads are fuglier than small plastic D rings. Also fugly are Mike Yee's blue vinyl pads, though he does use acceptable black webbing. Come to think of it, he never returned my email asking for info about his anchor pads.

Mike has not sold those blue color vinyl patches for many years, unless he has switched back recently without my knowledge. All of his stuff is on yellow vinyl. His webbing anchor patches are quite strong and very light.

To install flotation using the NorthWater daisy chains would be a very expensive proposition. Harmony Gear sells a somewhat similar vinyl backed, webbing loop daisy chain.

I had a friend who tried to get by on the cheap and build a pedestal by laying up multiple pieces of that blue foam crap. Adhesives caused the foam to dissolve. It was something short of a disaster, but a complete waste of time and money.

If I has a fancy composite canoe and did not want to drill a bunch of holes in the gunwales or hull, I would 'glass in a series of webbing loop anchors just beneath the gunwales.