Tips for Training Puppies in Canoes Requested

[DaveO]

This thread follows up on the picture of Cookie that I posted recently in Photo of the Day. Here is another photo:



Cookie is our 5 month old medium Labradoodle. I have given her quite a bit of hull time in the last several weeks. She has quickly learned to stay still and not bark at things commonly encountered in a canoe, but, of course, she will need continuing reinforcement. The Canak is perfect to keep her close to me and somewhat confined, but she is rapidly outgrowing it.

She has gotten comfortable enough to go to sleep at my feet when we are in open water where there are no sights or sounds of interest to her:



Mike asked if there is any chance she would fit in the front hatch when fully grown, or would that put the Canak bow heavy? She would fit in the front hatch for quite a while yet. It would be bow heavy, but I could compensate with the sliding bucket seat and cargo in the back hatch.

The bigger concern is that she would be mostly out of reach in the front hatch. She needs to be close to get rewards like treats and ear scratches for good behavior. Also, we went swimming (not from a capsize, just for fun) for the first time last week. The Lab in her loved it, and she might decide to go overboard on her own accord, so I want her close to hopefully restrain her.

The family is headed up to the Adirondacks at the end of August. We will be in a Spirit II. I want her fully trained by then to handle a 17’ tandem.

So, this week, we graduate to the 15' Rock Star. She needs to get comfortable with the full, open gunwales.

Any tips on training a puppy in a canoe would be most appreciated. We have not even begun working on getting in and out on command, and only on command.

 

[Alan Gage]

It looks like you've got a good partner in the making there!

Everyone seems to be different when it comes to canoe dogs. Personally I don't want my dog close by. In a solo I want her ahead of the front thwart so I have plenty of room for my legs and don't have to worry about her being in the way of any paddle strokes or when switching from sitting to kneeling. It's really not a big deal for day paddles but when tripping and running some whitewater I don't want to all of a sudden have a dog in my way when I need to do something fast. So while I wouldn't necessarily mind her being at my feet sometimes on lazy day paddles I don't let her because I want her to know where her place is and to stay there.

While being up front might put her out of arms reach it doesn't put her out of paddle reach so if she's misbehaving (very rare) I can always get her attention (and wave flies off her head). With Sadie all it takes is the paddle getting close or just a light poke to get her attention and for her to stop what she's doing. I used to have a springer spaniel and with him I'd sometimes have to give him a swift swat on the arse. Either way it keeps you in control when they're out of arms reach.

Nor do I pet my dogs or give them treats in the canoe. I don't give them treats or pet them on-demand at home either so there's nothing unusual in that when in the canoe. Again my reasons are that I don't want them sticking their nose in the way when I'm occupied with something important. If I get the puppy dog eyes I just remind her that most people don't take their dogs canoeing and that she's lucky she's not home alone.

She knows, "git in", "get out", and, "stay" and it's very, very rare that she'll disobey. A dog jumping in or out at the wrong time can sometimes turn into a bit of a problem, especially if you don't see it coming. The "get in" command can sometimes require a lot of trust on her part so I try to always be sure she can make the jump before giving the command and I keep a foam pad on the floor so she doesn't slip when she jumps in. Getting in is easy from a sand bank but when she's perched on a rock and the canoe is 3-4' away it can be a dicey leap so I always be sure to get in the best position I can (while telling her to "stay" even though she wants in pretty bad) before I finally tell her to "get in". And when I tell he to "get in" I want her to get in right now because I might be holding a precarious position so even though it looks like a hard jump she has to trust me and go for it when I tell her. With Sadie I know I must say this calmy, and sometimes repeat it calmly. If I get loud or sound mad she gets nervous and is likely to botch the jump. I've had other dogs who were the opposite.

Sadie doesn't like to swim so that's not an issue but my old springer loved to swim. I never allowed him to jump out of the canoe into the water even if we were just playing around by home. Again, I didn't want him to get in the habit or think it was an ok thing to do.

I'm kind of starting to sound like a hard arse but really I'm not. I do pet Sadie in the canoe but only on my terms. If she comes asking to be pet she probably won't get it but it's common for me to stop paddling for a while and relax and then Sadie gets some good attention. Sometimes I will even let her come over the thwart to sit by my feet but only if I've quit paddling. The only time she's allowed by my feet when paddling is when I want weight out of the bow when we're running a dicey rapid or a strong beam wind. Big waves make Sadie nervous so she's more than happy to oblige. I talk to her a lot too.

I suppose much depends how often you want to take a dog in the canoe and what/where you plan to go when you have them along. I've always intended Sadie to go everywhere with me so with that in mind there was a set of rules from the get-go. Not just in the canoe but traveling on road trips as well. The better she behaves the more places she gets to go, which is her reward. A paddling day for Sadie isn't really much different than any other day hanging out with me. Do what you're supposed to do, don't do what you aren't supposed to do, and you have the flexibility to do whatever you want inside those bounds. In some situations those bounds are smaller than others and she's pretty good at realizing and respecting that. I don't want surprises.

She loves being in the canoe and watching what's going on. She's small enough (just under 30 pounds) that she can easily curl up and sleep in the bow of a solo. In a high volume solo she can share the bow with a pack.

Alan

 

[Guest]

Dave, I believe it is much like “training” children to enjoy paddling; the more they get out, and the more comfortable they become, the better. Canine-wise, same as with experiencing the company of other dogs, other people, other environments. Well, kids too in those regards.

Occasional shore breaks to puppy-bladder-piss and sniff around help. New things to roll in, new smells to sniff, new places to investigate; those joys all make for a more willing partner. Friends have long experienced canoe dogs that can smell put ins approaching on a drive, and become noticeably eager for things to come.

That is some olfactory memory magic we will never be able to appreciate, and it would be interesting to experience. There will probably be a sniffer-app for that someday “Detecting a dead fish carcass, empty Bud Light cans, live deer and the faint odor of a skunk that passed by last night”

I think canine canoe comfort matters. Cookie will find her preferred waterborne location and position, probably different in different boats. I’d prefer, eventually, that it not right between my knees, especially if she likes to swim.

Beyond that I know I wouldn’t want to be resting my furry body in a puddle of bilge water against a water-chilled off-season hull. If Cookie decides she is a standing dog or bowsprit in open canoes some un-slippery surface will help her maintain grip.

And, finally, like paddling with kids, open water summer heat and sun exposure can take a toll on dogs. On tidal waters bring a dog bowl and potable water. Or you drink from the Sassafras too. Faint taste of chicken farm, with a hint of Round Up.

In that summer sun guise, I’ve often thought an arched “dog house” spray cover, providing some hide-away shade to rest beneath, would be easy to DIY.

Get right on that will ya.

 

[DaveO]

Alan: Thanks for your perspective. You sure have logged many a successful canoe mile with Sadie. I am curious if you trained her as a puppy, or later. I look forward to the day when Cookie is as well trained, and traveled, as Sadie.

We are struggling a bit with her obedience training in the home. The current thinking by most experts seems to focus on positive reinforcement (treats, praise, and affection), and advises against negative reinforcement (show of force). In the old days, all I remember is negative reinforcement, for the most part. I am more open to occasional negative reinforcement than the rest of the family.

For example, she jumps up on the couch, where she is not allowed. The advice is to use the command “off” or “down”, and give her a treat when she does, or lure her off the couch with a treat. It seems counter-intuitive. Is she learning to jump on the couch to get a treat? I apply a bit of negative reinforcement now and then to combat this.

Mike, we have logged about 20 hours on the water, and I am happy that she is so happy doing it. We both like the shore breaks. I keep her on the leash. Her first exploration of a dead fish was hilarious. I bought a bath mat that keeps her somewhat insulated from the hull and somewhat out of the bilge water. The PETKIT dog water bottle is awesome! I will need to learn more about dogs and sun exposure as the summer comes on.

I have to say, giving her a treat whenever she sees something interesting while saying “quiet” and “settle,” has worked great so far. She is steady with cormorants and GB Herons that let us get close and then fly away noisily. Same with geese and ducks, turtles, and even deer. She is OK with other boats and other people in general. She did great going by a dock under construction.

Several times she has tried to get her front paws up on the gunwales, and I have used negative reinforcement/force on her. She seems to have gotten the message on that.

She is too young and unsure of herself to jump in the canoe, so I have not even started with “get in” and “get out.” She is small enough that I can just easily lift her in and out.

This is my first dog since my childhood. The journey continues.

 

[Alan Gage]

I think the positive/negative reinforcement depends on the dog. I've had dogs that only seemed to get it through their thick heads when you got really mad and would otherwise try to play you like a fiddle.

I got Sadie as a rescue at about 1 year old and she's been a dream from day one. She gets most of the credit for her training. She's almost exclusively positive reinforcement and she seems to want to please. If you lose your temper and start to yell she just kind of locks up so it's counter productive.

I think negative reinforcement is necessary to some extent. That doesn't mean beating your dog but I think they need to have some respect and should react to stern commands immediately. This could save their life (heading towards traffic), or at least save a lot of trouble at times. My dogs quickly learn that a sharp "hey" means stop and pay attention or cease and desist. In training, when they're close at hand, that "hey" will be followed by a quick cuff and sharply pulling them off the couch (for example). I don't want to hurt them or traumatize them, I just want it to be uncomfortable so they don't want to repeat it. It doesn't take long until just saying "hey" alone does the trick when they get out of line.

Some dogs, like Sadie, are very sensitive so it doesn't take much at all. Other dogs seem to be oblivious to anything short of a baseball bat.

And as I'm sure you're well aware consistency is important, which is probably a bit tougher when there's more people than just you involved.

Dogs are excellent trainers and we can learn a lot from them.

Alan

 

[dschult2]

I think your well on your way. Really the same concepts apply to kayaks and canoes. When training I like to have treats on hand, lots and lots of treats. Good ones too, not just their dry kibble. Every time they do something you like, praise and a treat. Lots of treats also makes them want to stick around you because they hope they are going to get more. Very handy on protages. In the early stages I would give my dog a treat just for walking up to me. I wouldn't worry too much about getting her to enter and exit the canoe on command. Sure it looks good but not necessary. You can always lift her in and out. If you have time to work on it, great. Stay and sit are much more important. Even down isn't absolutely necessary, she'll lay down when she wants. As far as when your in the canoe, wherever your going to put her you might want to load it so she does not have much room to move around but she doesn't look that big so weight shifting might not be an issue. A simple yoga mat is great so she's not laying in bilge water is a must. As far as her jumping out of the canoe, if she does decide to jump out, let her and don't try to get her back in unless your far from shore and your worried she might drown. Just calmly paddle to shore with her following you. Chances are that will be the last time she does that. Good luck with your training, dogs can make great canoe partners.

P.S. Everything I said is based on my experiences with labs, which are probably the easiest dogs in the world to train. Your experiences may vary

 

[alsg]

My airedale terrier hates water and getting his feet wet. It's a blessing and a curse. The blessing is I have zero worries about him ever jumping overboard to go for a swim (or going into our swimming pool at home). The curse is that he doesn't always want to obey me and get into the canoe (airedales were bred to hunt vermin independently and aren't an especially obedient breed to begin with).

Usually it's not a problem to get him to willingly jump into the canoe the first time of the day. But if we stop for a pee break or to have lunch, he may decide that he's more interested in staying on dry land than getting back in the canoe. Fortunately, the thing he hates more than getting his feet wet is being left behind! If he gives me any grief at all about getting back in the canoe, I've learned that all I have to do is get in and paddle about 30ft. Then turn around and get close to shore and ask, "Well, are you coming or not?" He then gets in.

His hatred of wet feet reached its pinnacle on Little Tupper Lake. At one landing, there was a downed tree trunk, coming down from the shore next to where the canoe was sitting in about 3 inches of water, as seen in this photo (after I put the canoe up on shore).



When I got out of the canoe and gave him the command to get out, he looked at the water, then the tree, then the water, then the tree. Somehow, he managed to get all four paws on that tree trunk and tightrope walk his way up it without ever getting his tootsies wet! He was very proud of himself!

Training him not to fear the doggie life vest was an experience that involved lots of treats. I held a fistful in my hand and put it through the neck/head opening. As he sniffed and licked at my hand to get at the treats, I pulled my hand back through the opening slowly. Eventually, his desire for treats overcame his fear of sticking his head into that life vest. Now he's no problem to get it on and willingly sticks his head in it it at the put in.

Me and the good boy.

 

[gumpus]

My take is:

Secure footing for the dog like a kneeling mat or yoga mat or rubber backed bathroom mat.

I only taught the dogs one new command..."settle down". I'd start them on a short leash and if they became too active I'd give them a firm hold (by leash or collar or scruff of neck) and say "settle down". They learn quickly.

Personally I never let the dogs wander around the canoe Their spot is right in front of me.

I always use mini milkbone treats, only 5 calories each. If I ever accidentally splash the dog with the paddle or bonk them while switching sides they get a treat...it turns a negative into a positive. They quickly learn to expect that treat so don't forget the mini milkbones.

"Get in the boat" is pretty much same as "get in the car". When getting out I make them stay until I say "OK!" so they don't do anything surprising at tricky take-outs.

You might do short trips the first few times to help ensure success so you can praise the dog for being good.

That's it. The rest is consistency on your part.

 

[Alan Gage]

I was thinking more about boat training Sadie and my previous dog. I think the biggest thing that made it easy was that I was really into canoeing back then and it wasn't uncommon for me to be paddling 4 or 5 days (or more) a week. It turned into a "normal" thing for them real fast.

Sadie was out paddling with me the first day I got her. I'd been looking for a dog for a while and had specific size/shape criteria for fitting in a canoe and being able to run all day through tall grass (long legs but relatively small). Figured I might as well find out right away if I got a good one or not. I did.

Her first outing. We now live about 300 yards from this put-in.

20100711_012 copy_web by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[yellowcanoe]

We did dry land training Buddy's first winter. Just getting in and out of the canoe with a person in it or not. Buddy hates water. He got no more training.. He just jumped into the canoe the first time and settled down nicely. He needs a bit of room . He is a little antsy in a smaller solo and just relaxed in a bigger Curtis Nomad. He got to regard the canoe as a member of his pack. Sometimes we make camp settle in and Buddy is by the canoe...( Lets GO!) Lobster Lake ME.

 

[DaveO]

Thanks for your tips and thoughts. Cookie's canoe training is coming along pretty well. She has graduated to the solo canoe.

Before shore break swim, digging it:



After swim:

 

[Guest]

Cookie is looking good in her personal bow space.

I never cared for a wet dog seated between my legs. Not a phrase you want to utter aloud at a Disney Furry Convention, lest you raise the ire of Pluto and Goofy.

Up front, well behaved in their own personal Idaho, allows a lot more movement on my part without grasping a wet dog between my knees.

Still, and always, my all-time favorite bow wag, a friend’s Golden, dear Lucy; arse primly planted on the seat, attentive and even leaning learnedly in the right direction on eddy lines. She was in a canoe regularly since pup age.

EK_0010 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I would take Lucy in my boat on any trip, she was far better, and somewhat more skilled, than many of my bow partners. I’m not sure I would enjoy the canoe company of their current, over affectionate, over-sized pit mix, much as I love a slobbery 150lb lap cuddle and big brown eyes.

On the other hand, as a bow wag, beware developing a poorly balanced bowsprit spirit.

EK_0002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I know their owner’s loved them dearly, but I miss the company select friend’s canoe dogs. Some more than I miss their human companions.

 

[ppine]

I have had a lot of good boat dogs over the years, sometimes taking 3 at a time on a canoe trip. They also like rafts, sailboats and drift boats and power boats.
Canoes may be the hardest to get them accustomed to.

It helps to get them comfortable around the water. Most of my dogs have been good swimmers. They improve by swimming from a young age with older dogs, wearing a life jacket and long hours getting wet. Try a life jacket on your dog. It give them confidence. For aerated water they help a lot and for faster rivers. There is a handy strap on the back or there should be so you can pick them up and drag them back in the boat with one hand.

Dogs should sit or lie down when riding in a canoe. Otherwise their center of gravity is too high. I use my Border Collie to trim the boat.
After a few hours they realize that their movements affects the stability of the canoe. At first put them in a canoe by themselves so they can feel the movement when they change positions.

My BC was on her first week long canoe trip at 6 months of age. She is not my best swimmer, but a really good boat dog. She always wants to go and is great company.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Just remember to train your dog if they must exit the canoe midwater to do it directly over the bow,

 

[yellowcanoe]

and to otherwise sit quietly

 

[ppine]

They have to get used to waterfowl, salmon swimming under the boat, etc.
My last two Border Collies both point salmon. They ignore smaller fish like trout.

 

[DaveO]

Great pictures, great suggestions, thanks to all.

Yesterday, Cookie graduated to the tandem:

 

[Alan Gage]

Good for Cookie!

Sadie doesn't like the tandem. The bow paddler blocks her view so she crowds the gunwale to try and look around on the side they aren't paddling on. She switches when they switch. It gets kind of annoying. Thankfully (for both of us) tandem is a rarity.

I'm guessing Cookie likes sitting with a kid in the tandem. They're usually pretty generous with scratches.

Alan

 

[Salty dog]

This is my field trial Lab, Salty. She is a high energy girl and her best trait is she does what is ask of her. The first time I put her in my Dyer Midget dinghy to row across the intracoastal over to the barrier island. She jumped out close to the shore in current and I'm not sure what happened next other than grabbing her by the scruff and pulling her over the side. Mind you this is a 8.5' dinghy. Once in I scared her because the sat in the back and didn't move until the dinghy was on shore. Since then she has been on the paddle board and rides between my legs. She will start out swimming and after a hundred yards or so she swims over to the paddle board and climbs aboard. I questioned what was going to happen in the Argosy but after a shaky start on my part we cruised the ICW and all was good. I added a foam pad for her and she was much better. She has been in a dinghy, on a sailboat cruise, and a few canoes. Her love of the water is strong but her obedience is one of her best traits. Happy trails