Thoughts on a Bell Merlin ii (not that I'm looking for another canoe...)

[FartherWest]

I'll try to weigh it tonight when I get home from work, I'm curious too.

After I remove the handles and thwarts and sanding them a bit, should I treat them with the lotion a few of you have mentioned and then top off with the urethane or should I just sand and use the urethane? I have no woodworking experience, apologies for the the questions.

Will the epoxy and urethane treatment for the the 'floor' add much weight? It doesn't sound like it, and I would prefer to minimize that as much as possible. It sounds like using Glenn's idea of the release fabric to lay down the fibers and then topping off with the urethane could result in a fairly thin layer of new product. Just wondering what to expect.

Starting to gather supplies...

Thanks!

 

[FartherWest]

Has anyone tried "3M [FONT=Amazon Ember, Arial, sans-serif]20122 All Purpose Fiberglass Resin"?

It says it is waterproof and can be used on nearly anything including fiberglass, all paints and gel coat. [/FONT]

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'd first get a small can of acetone (AKA nail polish remover) and wipe it on to clean that scuffed area. (Wear rubber gloves.) It will dry almost immediately. Then see what the scuffed area looks like. And feels like: Is it really frayed or scratchy? If not, I'd consider leaving it as is.

I personally have no experience putting varnish/urethane or a resin coat on the interior of a hull. Of course it will add weight, but I assume you'd just be doing the scuffed area. Can you do it neatly? Will it look funny compared to the rest of the interior? I wouldn't be sure myself.

You can use the acetone later to clean the entire interior and exterior of the hull. It's good at getting scummy residue off the exterior. You can apply Penetrol as the final step on the outside and inside, whatever you decide to do with the scuffed area. You might even try some Penetrol on the scuff after the acetone, just to see if it improves the look. (Wipe on with one cloth, wipe off after five minutes with another cloth.) It won't interfere with a later coat of urethane or resin. It's primary use is as an additive to oil-based paint and varnish to increase penetration, flow and adhesion.

As for the woodwork, you can use a regular brush on varnish, which will last many years. You can also use a wipe on oil, which will last about one season. There are various oils that can be used, but the classic is probably Watco Teak Oil. Caution: There are many Watco varieties, but the Teak is the one for outdoor and marine use. And the Teak comes in a variety of stains.

Finally, you can use a wipe on varnish for the woodwork, which will last longer than oil but less than brush on varnish. That's what I've settled on. Brush-on varnish, which requires several coats, is too much work for me and I'm too sloppy. The Watco . . . well, I always fail to apply it regularly. So the wipe-on is quick and simple, lasts a couple of years, and isn't sloppy. I also use it on my wooden paddle blades. But I use Watco on the grips.

 

[Guest]

Has anyone tried "3M [FONT=Amazon Ember, Arial, sans-serif]20122 All Purpose Fiberglass Resin"?

It says it is waterproof and can be used on nearly anything including fiberglass, all paints and gel coat. [/FONT]

That is a Bondo product, and I would guess it is polyester resin.

Simplistically, there are polyester, Vinylester and epoxy resins. It is best to use like materials in repairs, ie poly on poly or Vinylester on Vinylester. Polyester resin atop Vinylester resin, or vice versa, not so good. However epoxy resins will adhere to epoxy, polyester or Vinylester resins.

Since I suppose this resin need regards only the scuff area the easiest solution would be to go ahead and use the porch and deck paint. That won’t add much weight, and is only one hardware store item to purchase, instead of epoxy resin, release treated peel ply and varnish or spar urethane as a UV top coat.

Then see what the scuffed area looks like. And feels like: Is it really frayed or scratchy? If not, I'd consider leaving it as is.

I personally have no experience putting varnish/urethane or a resin coat on the interior of a hull. Of course it will add weight, but I assume you'd just be doing the scuffed area. Can you do it neatly? Will it look funny compared to the rest of the interior? I wouldn't be sure myself.

I agree with Glenn, if after cleaning the scuffed area isn’t frayed or fuzzy I’d leave it along for now.

You can do a relatively neat job of laying down a scuff patch with paint or epoxy, just tape out the diamond (or etc), paint or epoxy inside the tape box and then pull the tape. “Relatively neat”, the weave texture inside the hull will mean the tape box lines are not crisp, but at least any drips will run down inside the boxed area.

As for the woodwork, you can use a regular brush on varnish, which will last many years. You can also use a wipe on oil, which will last about one season. There are various oils that can be used, but the classic is probably Watco Teak Oil. Caution: There are many Watco varieties, but the Teak is the one for outdoor and marine use. And the Teak comes in a variety of stains.

I agree with that as well. Oil treatments do not last as long as varnish or spar urethane. That OK for wood gunwales, where it is easy enough to wipe on a fresh coat of oil one a year, but I don’t want to have to take off the thwarts and carry handles that often to re-seal the butt ends.

In addition the carry handles show signs of end rot and even if they are salvageable with sanding I’d want a more protective barrier layer than oil on that already damaged wood.

 

[FartherWest]

This is a picture of the wear area on under the seat:

That looks like exposed fibers to me - or maybe I don't understand what I am looking at? (see post 21 for ability to zoom). I don't mind a 'process' to getting the boat back to it's original condition, that's part of the fun of buying an older boat.

With respect to the floor - if I can get away with Penetrol for now and use something this winter to properly seal the wear area on the floor I'll just do that. That will keep it on the water while the weather is nice, which is great. I don't really like the idea of using deck paint, will the spar urethane work over the floor? If it does, I might just do that. My initial thought was to do the following:

Thin coat of epoxy in the wear area, cover with the peel ply and smooth from the top (feather out to blend)
Remove peel ply when set and sand lightly.
Cover patched area and possibly the rest of the interior with a thin coat of the urethane or appropriate epoxy resin to re-seal entire interior.​

Also, I think the spar urethane idea with the woodwork is the method I'll go with. Removing the brightwork (?) to keep it oiled isn't going to work in the long run. The less I fiddle with screws/nuts/bolts,etc the less likely I am to have a problem with them (ie: stripping them).

My intention is to try to return the boat to as close to its original condition as possible and do it in such as way that I don't have to repeat the process for another several years.

I also weighed the boat last night, it is 40 lbs which oddly falls between the two weights suggested earlier. "A black-gold with aluminum gunwales should be in the mid 30's; the white-gold, about ten pounds heavier." The boat also has the foam core mat so I think that makes it likely a white/gold layup?

 

[Will Derness]

This is a picture of the wear area on under the seat:

That looks like exposed fibers to me - or maybe I don't understand what I am looking at? (see post 21 for ability to zoom). I don't mind a 'process' to getting the boat back to it's original condition, that's part of the fun of buying an older boat.

With respect to the floor - if I can get away with Penetrol for now and use something this winter to properly seal the wear area on the floor I'll just do that. That will keep it on the water while the weather is nice, which is great. I don't really like the idea of using deck paint, will the spar urethane work over the floor? If it does, I might just do that. My initial thought was to do the following:

Thin coat of epoxy in the wear area, cover with the peel ply and smooth from the top (feather out to blend)
Remove peel ply when set and sand lightly.
Cover patched area and possibly the rest of the interior with a thin coat of the urethane or appropriate epoxy resin to re-seal entire interior.

My intention is to try to return the boat to as close to its original condition as possible and do it in such as way that I don't have to repeat the process for another several years.
​

My understanding is epoxy resin is UV sensitive and w/o a covering will fail on some level. So I've always either added carbon or enamel spray painted epoxy finishes in my interior repairs. I'm not sure how sensitive epoxy is to light, but I don't want to set myself up for another repair some time down the road.

I can't comment on spar urethane on the floor, I have no experience with that.

Given my skill set, if I determined it had to be covered in some fashion, I would use epoxy, carbon powder, with a peel ply finish. I would tape 2 polygons. The smaller polygon would be be the area revealing the peel ply finish. The ever so slightly larger polygon that is taped would allow me to spray paint the rough edges of the epoxy cure. The result would be a sharply painted black edge that transitions to the fine pebble grain of the peel ply. This approach requires tape covering the cured peel ply polygon, otherwise the paint will fill in the pebble grain pattern.

There may other ways to skin this cat, but that is one way.

And I, like you, would keep the boat on the water until the season wanes - your priorities seem in good shape​

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I think if you're going to epoxy the floor, I would not put any other finish or treatment on ahead of it. It's extremely unlikely that paddling it as is this season (or next) will cause any structural problem. I'd use it now, and clean it well at the end of the season, and then make the epoxy coat a winter project (assuming you have a place indoors to do it). Spar varnish over the epoxy is your call - but really - how much sun is the floor of your canoe going to see?

As for the brightwork....I would use nothing less than spar varnish or spar urethane, in multiple coats. I would not use anything abrasive on the aluminum - unless you want to etch it and paint it afterwards. I'm assuming that it has an anodized finish that is probably damaged in the area of concern - but not as much as it would be if you abrade the area to polish it.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Regarding the weight.....Darn few canoes are exactly the weight specified. Most are heavier, IME. And if there was anything added to the boat, of course, that will show. That may include some not so obvious things like grab loops and anchor points.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

BTW - good score on the Merlin II. No hard feelings.

 

[gumpus]

I think you have a BG boat since Bells were always over their advertised weight. I thought the BG Merlin II was advertised at 36 and WG at 43. Bell stated a 1-2 pound penalty for colored gel coat on BG boats, plus a little weight for the foam core that Glenn says was on later boats (mine is a 1999 and does not have a foam core), plus a little fibbing and you get to 40.

If you just wet your thwarts with a sponge then you/we can see if you have the darker black walnut used on BG boats. Even with bleached thwarts the grain looks like black walnut.

 

[gumpus]

You have fuzzing but it's not critical so if you just use a cheap foam pad or rubber bath mat the abrasion will stop and you can take more time to figure out how to seal it with something clear. I suggest that you read the instructions on a can of Penetrol before you decide if you want to use it. I also prefer to use the mildest products possible...although Penetrol might be ideal for your exterior gel coat if it is severely oxidized.

No need to use both oil and varnish. Varnish is sturdier. Oil adds some nice patina and may be a bit easier for touch-ups. If your boat will be stored inside you just need to take the handles and thwarts off once and give the ends several good soakings since you have some rot. But once your wood is well-treated or replaced if the rot is severe you should never have to take them off again...just touch up the wood you can see when it looks like it wants attention, maybe once a year. Boats stored inside are not fussy.

 

[gumpus]

My Merlin II got out today

 

[yellowcanoe]

There is also a matte marine varnish but I forget who makes it

 

[FartherWest]

BTW - good score on the Merlin II. No hard feelings.

Thanks Steve in Idaho! I am looking forward to spending a little more time in it before the winter. It will be stored inside and I can work on it in the garage so making it a winter project works out well for me.

So shortened to-do list will be addressing dry woodwork, sooner than later, and sorting through ideas on the flooring over the next few months. Adding the new seat to the Christmas list. And last but not least, getting it out of the water again.

Still not sure about the lay-up. The one listed for sale on BWCA earlier this year was a white-gold, 2002 model, weighed 42 pounds, and it looks just like what I have at home. Either way, I am happy with the weight and I don't think I can get hurt by the price I paid on it either - so no worries!

http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1006190&forumID=133&confID=1

(If I ever sell it - I'll send Steve in Idaho a note first!)

 

[Guest]

This is a picture of the wear area on under the seat

That looks like exposed fibers to me - or maybe I don't understand what I am looking at? (see post 21 for ability to zoom). I don't mind a 'process' to getting the boat back to it's original condition, that's part of the fun of buying an older boat.

With respect to the floor - if I can get away with Penetrol for now and use something this winter to properly seal the wear area on the floor I'll just do that.

The photo in post 21 does look a little hairy. Kevlar does not sand well, it just fuzzes, essentially what shoe scraping action has done.

I would absolutely not use Penetrol on that area of exposed fibers. Epoxy resin and release treated peel ply will smooth it out and help protect it. The topcoat of varnish or spar urethane is probably superfluous for UV protection inside a canoe, but peel ply leaves a faint weave finish that will trap dirt and a top coat will smooth that out. You could also just roll and tip out another layer of epoxy without the peel ply.

Deck/porch paint will cover and protect the area as well. The epoxy resin will closer to original condition appearance, but still visible, the deck/porch paint much more so.

I have never used Penetrol on the outside of composite hulls, but I have one on the racks that a friend Penetrol’ed occasionally. It is pretty smeary chalky; not sure if he used it incorrectly or if Penetrol is something that needs yearly treatment to keep looking shiny.

A good marine paste wax and a buffing wheel would be my choice for the exterior.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

My weight suggestions were not meant to be gospel.

Bell's specs are no longer on the internet. I was mainly going by a Lake George Kayak web page that says the Merlin II in black-gold is 33 lbs. and in KevLite is 31 lbs., and a Pnet reviewer who said his white-gold with wooden gunwales is 43 lbs. I estimated two more pounds for aluminum gunwales, though I'm not sure how exact that is. In any event, there have always two or three pound margins of error for handmade canoes.

So, you either have a heavy black-gold or a light white-gold. I don't think it matters.

Back to the scuffed area: I was trying to suggest that the more important thing than how it looks is whether it in fact feels frayed, snaggy or abrasive. If it doesn't, then apart from technical solutions, there is a dichotomy of philosophy. As a new buyer of even used canoes, I do recall wanting to shine them up to look pretty. I also recall my horror in scratching, denting, pinning and smashing my new canoes. Now, my philosophy is more jaded. I expect the bottom of my canoes and the high wear interior areas to be all scuffed up. They now are badges of honorable use.

If the soles of my hiking boots are in pristine condition, you can surely guess how avid a hiker I am.

Of course, if I buy your boots, I'm not much interested in your badges of hiking honor.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Just to roil the pot more. There were Black Gold layups with a white gel coat.
There were other layups that did not make it into the catalog as they were special order

 

[FartherWest]

So, you either have a heavy black-gold or a light white-gold. I don't think it matters.

Agreed, it is lightweight, pretty, and fast and I'm happy.

The scuffed area feels just like I described it, fuzzy and slightly rough. I don't usually paddle barefoot so it isn't really an issue for me.

My concern is water seeping into the fabric and causing problems. I know this is a serious concern with sea kayaks and had assumed it was the same with canoes. If the little fuzzies are okay until the winter then I'll deal with them then, otherwise I'll deal with it sooner.

As far as aesthetics - Glenn, I get it. There are few things more sad then a 10 year old boat (of any kind), that is brand new.

However, it will see a fair amount of use with me and oddly I find myself wanting to keep it as true to its original condition as possible. It seems like a special little boat, that is fairly rare, especially out here - maybe I'm wrong and going sentimental about something that doesn't make sense (like someone wanting to restore a 1978 Mustang II vs a 1968 Mustang?)? I don't know, anyway - that's why I'm being a pest asking the questions and doing the research to try to use the right products, sort of like restoring and maintaining a little piece of art. Sorry for the little nostalgia trip - just wanted you guys to understand why I am gravitating towards certain directions with respect to the repairs.

Found I have a marine grade cleaner wax (forgot I had that...) I use on my sea kayaks and will see how it does on the outside of the hull. I also have an orbital buffer (have detailed cars off and on for years) so should be a short process.

Sincerely - thank you all!! I appreciate it.
Kathy

 

[cflcanoe]

Feel the same way about my Bell Northstar and Bell Wildfire. "As far as aesthetics - Glenn, I get it. There are few things more sad then a 10 year old boat (of any kind), that is brand new.

However, it will see a fair amount of use with me and oddly I find myself wanting to keep it as true to its original condition as possible. It seems like a special little boat, that is fairly rare, especially out here - maybe I'm wrong and going sentimental about something that doesn't make sense (like someone wanting to restore a 1978 Mustang II vs a 1968 Mustang?)? "

Like the photos with the dog. Learning a few things from this thread. The amount of knowledge shared freely here in a helpful manner is outstanding. Oh and just wishing my canoes were just ten years old.

 

[yellowcanoe]

No a 22 year old boat unused coming to me for three hundred fills me with glee
I did like the Merlin II it came to me for 1100 new when a small family canoe store alas closed
Kevlar is hydrophilic so it's best to seal. Charlie Wilson posts little here now but was a principal at Bell with Ted and can nail the layup and the materials used and what not to use and what to use. W