​Solo tripper canoe preferences?

[Alan Gage]

if I could pick a past or present canoe model to modify for big boy/big load tripping purposes I would look for much the same dimensions as the Penobscot. Same 16+ feet (and maybe a bit more), 32-ish inches wide at the gunwales (I drew the Penobscot in a tad), shallow arch (or shallow vee) bottom, 14-ish inches deep at center, 20 inches + at the stems, symmetrical, with just a touch more rocker.

Oh yeah, in a sub 50 lb “expedition” weight lay up of kevlar/carbon/basalt/interfreakingnegra/spider silk composite schedule. Or, more economically, a used old school kevlar and S-glass canoe with rotted brightwork to replace.

I could drop easily 5 lbs or more from the permanent Penobscot outfitting with better materials and more forethought. If I could get that canoe near or under 50 lbs I’d be good for the next decade.

Which past or present canoes best fit that big boy weight and gear load displacement and dimensional criteria?

Take away the tumblehome and add a few inches to the length and you just described the boat I have on the forms now (Berens). Want me to make a couple quick changes and send you the plans? You could easily have it finished before spring. People with a lot less skills than you successfully build strippers all the time.

Alan

 

[Guest]

Make it $750 and a fire-in-a-pot and you could have a great deal.

Glenn, how’s about this – next time you are headed south skip the SRT and bring a pot and lid. I have 30lbs of candle wax, cardboard and a Coleman stove.

We can make you a custom Fire-in-a-can. And re-grip your too long ZRE while we’re at it.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I love the sliding bucket seat on a narrow pedestal which allows me to very quickly and easily shift between sitting and kneeling without having the wrangle my feet under/out of the seat and there are zero entrapment worries in case of a capsize.

You have a kneelable sliding bucket seat? That's been my dream seat for a long time but I've never seen one. Is it commercially available or your own invention? Pictures? Do you know what the rig weighs? Can the seat be raised and lowered? Canted?

Sorry for all the questions but this is of real interest to me.

BTW, I'm positive Mike wouldn't want an SRT. To keep.

 

[Alan Gage]

You have a kneelable sliding bucket seat? That's been my dream seat for a long time but I've never seen one. Is it commercially available or your own invention? Pictures? Do you know what the rig weighs? Can the seat be raised and lowered? Canted?

I found a similar idea online quite a few years ago and adapted it for my own preferences. I haven't thought of an easy or functional way to make it height adjustable or to adjust the cant on the fly. It would be nice to have it a little higher for kneeling but since I don't do that often, or for very long, I get by fine with it at sitting height (6.5-7" from the floor to bottom of the seat). If I plan on taking a day trip where I think I'll be kneeling a fair amount of the time I bring one of those square flotation pads to bring the seat height up. With the new hull being wider (32") I'm planning for the seat to be a bit higher.

The complete rig weighs, from memory, 2 pounds. The whole thing is about 18" long and gives 10" of travel. The frame is 7" wide.

20160222_002 by Alan, on Flickr

20150725_002 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I found a similar idea online quite a few years ago and adapted it for my own preferences. I haven't thought of an easy or functional way to make it height adjustable or to adjust the cant on the fly. It would be nice to have it a little higher for kneeling but since I don't do that often, or for very long, I get by fine with it at sitting height (6.5-7" from the floor to bottom of the seat). If I plan on taking a day trip where I think I'll be kneeling a fair amount of the time I bring one of those square flotation pads to bring the seat height up. With the new hull being wider (32") I'm planning for the seat to be a bit higher.

The complete rig weighs, from memory, 2 pounds. The whole thing is about 18" long and gives 10" of travel. The frame is 7" wide.

20160222_002 by Alan, on Flickr

20150725_002 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

Alan, I'm still not clear whether you make the seat and frame, or buy them, or modify something you buy. What's the frame made of?

 

[Alan Gage]

Alan, I'm still not clear whether you make the seat and frame, or buy them, or modify something you buy. What's the frame made of?

I make the whole thing and so did the person I adapted the idea from. I've made the frame from wood, carbon over foam, and a mixture of the two. Wood is a lot less hassle and making it from cedar with hardwood strips at the top edge (for the screws to bit into) is only a few ounces heavier. The rails are 1" aluminum tube painted black. The slider tubes attached to the bottom of the seat are thin walled PVC pipe. I have molds to make my own composite seats, both small and large. My butt prefers the small. Any seat could be made to work with the frame.

Alan

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

I'm pretty monogamous with my boat of choice at any particular time. Meaning, I guess, that I can't successfully jump from boat to boat and expect a far reaching relationship. Or maybe I can't learn a boat well without devoting myself exclusively to the vagaries of her lines within (and sometimes without) her limitations, in the sort of perpetual quest to work out everything she will and won't do: everywhere we can and cannot go. Which leads, in the end, to a kind of joy or maybe contentment until she breaks, or, maybe, gets stolen.

Or maybe I'm simply a slow learner.

That said, I prefer tandem whitewater designs for my particular style of canoe-trekking. They've suited me well. I kneel at the delta 100 percent of the time, unless I'm not kneeling, and I prefer to go downstream most of the time, and I enjoy a wide variety of rapids, and I sometimes hit rocks, and I often carry camping gear for as many days as I can escape. I installed a seat once in a Dagger Impulse and it pretty much crinkled my back and I removed it almost immediately. And then sold the boat almost immediately. Kneeling keeps my back straight and if I move around on the flats--stand up, sit on the back thwart--my shoulders and elbows get worn out and ready for a fire and beer long before my ankles and knees. My current pedestal/bulkhead height is 8.5", which is high for some, which might help explain my relative comfort.

Up until very recently, I've been partial to the soft chined heavy rocker of boats like the Caption (Dagger variety) or even to a less extent the Caper, or Vertige X. The ME was a big displacement hull with gear capacity and maneuverability as well. Blue boats, mostly. Lot of blues. But I'm currently honeymooning with a slightly smaller Red Boat, and we'll have to see how she goes. Blue to red, kind of thing. She's kind of weird and all her lines are hard, except for the soft bubs on her bow and stern to keep her going up and over the big boys. Everywhere else she's flat. Another boat billed as a tandem whitewater boat. 13 feet long. 28 inches wide. Royalex. (The last of her kind.) Enough room for a long time on the water. I'll be soloing the Grand Canyon for 3 weeks out of her come January. And we'll then see how well she takes to the flats...

She's a little squirrelly and it's taking some time to get the balance right for standing (or kneeling, for that matter). She wants to go in every direction at once. But I've done an easy week out of her (with cold beer!) and can change direction with a sharp lean and catch a snappy eddy on a post, which I've always found difficult in soft chined boats. And though it may not be forever, I think we may have a good time for a good while....

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[Guest]

Guess I'm really in a minority preferring a small solo. I'm an average sized guy(5'10"-180#) I have done trips as long as a week, but I go pretty lite. I do have a novacraft pal I paddle solo,but have never needed that much capacity for tripping. Different strokes.....
Turtle

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I make the whole thing and so did the person I adapted the idea from. I've made the frame from wood, carbon over foam, and a mixture of the two. Wood is a lot less hassle and making it from cedar with hardwood strips at the top edge (for the screws to bit into) is only a few ounces heavier. The rails are 1" aluminum tube painted black. The slider tubes attached to the bottom of the seat are thin walled PVC pipe. I have molds to make my own composite seats, both small and large. My butt prefers the small. Any seat could be made to work with the frame.

Perhaps we should take this off line or start a new thread on kneelable bucket seats, but I'll ask a few more questions.

Here's my SRT with the Deal kneeling bucket seat. I have the front edge about 8.5"-9" off the bottom and the whole thing is slightly canted forward via the wedges under the adjustable drop blocks. This height and slope are good for both kneeling and sitting. Note how the front of the seat curls around the front edge to reduce cutting under the thighs. A sharp front edge has been a problem on some of the bucket seats designed for sitting I've tried kneeling on.

This seat works well except for the entrapment risk in rapids. I haven't fallen out of a canoe on flatwater since 1985, but I come close every time I try to get my aging and thickening legs and feet out from under the seat to go into a sitting position. Very dicey, and I'm thus afraid to do it unless I'm really close to shore.

Looking at your pedestal, could it be raised up two inches by putting shims in between the aluminum tubes and the top of the X frame? If so, and if long bolts instead of wood screws could be used, different sized shims could be used for different heights. Or even slightly thicker shims in the rear than the front to get a slope or cant. What do you think?

And I wonder if my seat with its curled front edge could be put on your frame. Alternatively, maybe my seat could be shimmed up with long wedges that would go under it, between it and the PVC slider tubes.

 

[Alan Gage]

Glenn: I sent you a PM.

Alan

 

[stripperguy]

Here's my version of an adjustable seat that also works for kneeling. The supports are carbon over foam, epoxied and filleted with more carbon directly to the hull. Top of the supports is covered with 3M Dual Lock, as is the underside of the seat frame. Any seat would work as well. The Dual Lock is getting a little tired after 2 years of use, I used to be able to lift the entire boat by the seat.
As far as function, it is similar to Allen's adjustable seat, but mine allows more varied leg positions.
Both feet under, one foot under, a foot on each side of a single support (when kneeling and heeling).
Fore - aft adjustment is quick and easy.
And entrapment?? Can't happen, the seat frame would just pop off during a mishap.

Sorry for the poor quality photo, it's all I could find.
BTW, this Kite is my current go to hull for most of my solo paddling.

View attachment JU-8mFFG4-mzLy2H2LrEaM4EyuXJRK_CPsrfGpn_TNheRd1hzl6ItdkT_cZKlUJ2TfSXHg7kGSZg91EM5wsgpsgwjqLadv4Q8fdV

 

[yellowcanoe]

To address some questions
1. My Loon Works wood/dacron boat is not an antique. 14 foot 34 lbs made in 1998.. Its got lightweight planking and the thwarts every three feet prevent the boat from twisting. Tom made furniture grade boats. Aside from Pam Wedd I venture NO ONE can make such an exquisite boat in terms of finish and curve to every part.
2. I hate the Raven because it is way too big for me.. Its way too big for my hubby too. It was our dog boat . It can haul gear for several months. Now we have no dog. It has the turning radius of a mack truck. Its a downriver tripper
3.The Argosy as many know is skittish due to the Wenonah hull shape wide on the bottom tapering to the top.. Any waves coming from the side ride up and exert force high up to unsettle you. Not a good river boat when there is significant chop or rapids. I prefer boats like the WildFire that have shouldered tumblehome. The Wild has incredible secondary stability and deflects waves down. Seated paddlers feel its unstable but if you look at videos of FreeStyle canoeists, the shoulder holds very well. Its hard to get a compensatory body position by sitting.. Not hard when kneeling.

In old age I seem to prefer boats with a flatter bottom and yellowcanoe is very round. Like the DragonFly it is an intimidating boat and just about impossible to sit in it empty and stay upright.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Here's my version of an adjustable seat that also works for kneeling. The supports are carbon over foam, epoxied and filleted with more carbon directly to the hull. Top of the supports is covered with 3M Dual Lock, as is the underside of the seat frame. Any seat would work as well. The Dual Lock is getting a little tired after 2 years of use, I used to be able to lift the entire boat by the seat.
As far as function, it is similar to Allen's adjustable seat, but mine allows more varied leg positions.
Both feet under, one foot under, a foot on each side of a single support (when kneeling and heeling).
Fore - aft adjustment is quick and easy.
And entrapment?? Can't happen, the seat frame would just pop off during a mishap.

Sorry for the poor quality photo, it's all I could find.

BTW, this Kite is my current go to hull for most of my solo paddling.

Stripperguy, I'll probably end up PM'ing you as I am with Alan, but a couple of questions that may interest others.

I don't know the boat's or the seat's dimensions or yours, but in a normal kneel (not heeling) do you have both feet between the supports or both outside the supports? What size shoe do you wear?

If the seat is velcroed onto the supports does it actually slide somehow, or do you lift off the seat and reposition?

If I had such a device I'd be reluctant to epoxy it to my hull because I change my mind about things and like versatility. Do you think the frame could be velcroed to the hull if you ran connecting bars longitudinally between the feet at the bottom? Would that hold position during normal paddling forces?

I especially like that idea because I could remove the entire seat frame when cartopping as I can with the seats in my Lotus canoes. I've always thought it was a great deterrent to theft to for a cartopped hull to have no seat in it.

 

[stripperguy]

Glenn,
I never thought about removable seat supports...I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't be so.
I'm still a welterweight, and wear an 8 1/2 shoe.
With both legs tucked between the supports it is a snug fit for me, and I am more wiry than most guys my age. But the spacing between supports is only based on seat dimensions.
Don't confuse the Dual Lock with ordinary, or even high strength, Velcro. The Dual Lock is available in various button counts, strengths vary, but should withstand any applied loads.
The seat does not slide once locked into position, but repositioning it takes but a moment or two. Get off the seat, pop it loose, pick a new position, lock it back down, it's pretty convenient. I've fond that my Kite is extremely sensitive to trim, so for me, that ability to quickly adjust is critical.

One other advantage I forgot to mention.
The lack of transverse supports allows for easy maneuvering fore to aft, especially helpful when traversing 20 or more beaver dams in a day. Not sure about the rest of you guys, but I'm not the flexible wrestler that I once was...Not needing to swing a leg over transverse rails makes for easy and quick movement about the boat, and even helps whens loading and unloading gear.

Alan's seat frame has that same advantage, as does any bottom mounted seat support.

 

[Iskweo]

Like some others, I often had to use what was at hand. Worst case scenario was the fibreglass Scott 15 foot freighter y stern. That was my daily driver for getting back and forth to Kookums place and going fishing etc. Not optimal to paddle at all.

I adore the Bastien/ Faber/ Picard Hurons that were made in Lorrettville. I had a couple of those Tremblay Sioux but never got to paddle one. No matter, I know where I can borrow one if need be. The Huron that we did have previously was a terribly sweet canoe to paddle and I did not feel bad at all about upgrading it. We are considering reproducing them to better quality standards.

Matin, we have one of those low end Champlains too...looks like a good design.

I do currently use a BearMountain stripper myseld but again not an optimal design. Rather prospectory and while it is super stable it can be a beast in the wind when empty. Good day trip ( cottagey) tandem. Lesson learned.

Rudders, sails, pedestal seats, composite layups???? dang you guys. I can feel myself being corrupted by the dark side now.

Christy

 

[Guest]

Take away the tumblehome and add a few inches to the length and you just described the boat I have on the forms now (Berens). Want me to make a couple quick changes and send you the plans? You could easily have it finished before spring. People with a lot less skills than you successfully build strippers all the time.

Um, you surely mean before spring of 2019, and I don’t want to even think about the aesthetics of my first attempt at foam and carbon gunwales. A better (and faster) plan is to wait until you have built the Barrens Mark II or Mark III and make you an offer on an earlier used iteration.

The Argosy as many know is skittish due to the Wenonah hull shape wide on the bottom tapering to the top.

I have never paddled an Argosy. From the specs alone it is too short for my tripping gear load purposes and the 27 inch gunwale width too restrictive.

Any waves coming from the side ride up and exert force high up to unsettle you. Not a good river boat when there is significant chop or rapids.

Even as a day use canoe that is enough to put me off. Or out and swimming. I can see myself equally unsettled (or wet) in broadside lake waves and chop. The Argosy does have a reputation as a love it or hate it boat.

My preferences for a solo tripping canoe unquestionably run large. I love the Mad River Guide/Freedom Solo as an all-propose day tripper, especially in moving water, but I would need a periscope to see over my tripper load.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Stripperguy, are you primarily a switch paddler or single side paddler?

One drawback of a centrally mounted seat such as Alan's, stripperguy's or my Deal bucket is that single side paddlers can't scoot their butt over to the side very comfortably to paddle on a heel. You can do that very easily with a wide hung seat such as the Conk Comfort Curve, which is shown here installed on my Bell Wildfire:

The ability to butt-weight heel is not completely absent with my Deal bucket, because I can shift my weigh just slightly sideways to push against the raised sides of the bucket, which will induce heel.

We actually had a thread two years ago discussing hung solo seats vs. pedestal mounted seats:

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums.../18378-hung-seat-vs-sliding-bucket-in-a-magic

 

[Guest]

I'm now conflicted about this topic.

I interpreted the OP to be talking about solo canoes specifically designed for self-sustained trips by a lone paddler for weeks or a month in Siberia, Uzbekistan or Nepal -- with miles of unfamiliar rapids, rock-bashing lining and tracking, portaging, gigantic lake waves, yeti attacks, and no homo sapiens for parsecs. In that context, I would never consider a 25 lb. canoe, any fragile canoe, a 13' canoe, or a canoe with less than 14" of depth. But that's just me.

Wow, you got all that from “What model canoe present or past would folks look for to modify for solo tripping? Good to see you have found the Longbottom Leaf.

The closest I’ll ever come (or want to come) to tripping the wild rivers of Uzbekistan is reading half of some adventure travelog before putting it down muttering “This is ridiculous”.

Most of us trip in more familiar waters, and even there, for a week in the Adirondacks or a few days down Pine Creek, I wouldn’t choose (or fit) in a 13 foot canoe. But I’m not Turtle, or Conk, and portage as little as possible. I was mostly curious about the range of canoe types and designs that CT trippers prefer.

And, on reflection, kinda looking for suggestions for a used Unicorn, a manufactured composite hull approximating the Penobscot 16 specs that was 20 lbs lighter. If the Wenonah Solo Plus was a little deeper and had some rocker it would work, but it’s still 50+ lbs in Tuff-weave.

Oh, I do consider most of northern Canada to be real wilderness. I've never had the opportunity to go there, and now it's too late. (In fact, I refuse to go anywhere in Canada ever again -- but that's a different story.)

I have never paddled in northern Canada, and have not even been across the border in 15 years. Same for the US/Mexico border.

In part because if I am making the effort to escape madding crowds it is easier to winter paddle in Maryland or the Carolinas, and in part because I dislike border and customs authority, despite having never experienced a bad crossing.

I’m legal as a beagle in border crossings (I have even had my rabies shots….that too is another story), but I perhaps unrealistically fear a border crossing where some eagle eyed trainee wants to empty and inspect every bag, box and barrel in the truck and leave me looking at an acre of gear to repack.

I don’t refuse to go across, but for what I enjoy I simply don’t see the need.

At the risk of offending our Canadian brethren I am curious about your “never again” different story.

 

[stripperguy]

Stripperguy, are you primarily a switch paddler or single side paddler?

One drawback of a centrally mounted seat such as Alan's, stripperguy's or my Deal bucket is that single side paddlers can't scoot their butt over to the side very comfortably to paddle on a heel. You can do that very easily with a wide hung seat such as the Conk Comfort Curve, which is shown here installed on my Bell Wildfire:

Well, that depends.
I am by nature a sit 'n switch kind of guy. I always paddle with a single blade, almost always with a bent shaft.
However, that paddling style doesn't suit all hulls, so I adapt as necessary.
My paddling preferences are not the same as some, I really do enjoy 20 or 30 beaver drags in a day, hence, my preference, or maybe need, for a clear path fore and aft. That's also the reason why I still build with decks, climbing in and out dozens of times is too easy when you can use the decks as a step.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

And, on reflection, kinda looking for suggestions for a used Unicorn, a manufactured composite hull approximating the Penobscot 16 specs that was 20 lbs lighter.

20 pounds lighter would put you in the 38-40 pound range. I'd say there aren't a lot of 16' tandems at that weight, and if there are, they'd be expensive.

Ne'rtheless, I thought of the Bell Morningstar in black-gold. HERE is a pnet thread in which an experienced paddler compares the Penobscot to the Morningstar. In THIS THREAD, Charlie Wilson give a long history of the Morningstar's development at Bell. Pgeorg, who I think posts here, has a Morningstar among several other tandems and solos. I could put you in touch with him.