Seat and thwarts in a solo canoe

[Guest]

Got the OT back together. Stock rear thwart, new front thwart in the old holes of the front seat. New Essex curved seat 9 inches behind the balance point. The seat is about 3 inches in front of the rear thwart. Paddling this week. Hopefully a photo to follow.

Ppine, cool beans, looking forward to seeing some photos, and hearing how the seat placement works with dog trim.

Is your front thwart in old seat holes within lean-forward reach by chance?

When you say “9 inches behind the balance point” do you mean the front edge of the seat frame, or center seat?

3” back of seat frame on the rear thwart should be enough. One of my issues with a lot of Wenonah’s solo canoes if the too-close proximity of the rear thwart, sometimes less than/barely two inches away from the back of the seat frame. I’m already thick of waist, and really like the ability to scoot back a few inches on the seat to bring the bow up when so desired.

I expect the Wenonah proximity is due to how they plate hang some of their seats off the sheerline edge under the gunwales instead of hangered from the inwale.

I’ve moved that too-close offending rear thwart back a few inches without any noticeable ill effect.

 

[ppine]

hi Mike,
Forward thwart is not reachable easily from the seat.
Front edge of the seat is 9 in back.
Rear thwart can be moved. I don't like when the bottom of my life jacket hangs up on it.

 

[PeteStaehling]

I made a wooden portage yoke for my new to me Wenonah Escapade, but have not mounted it in the boat. The boat came with no center thwart or yoke and the seat dead center. I moved the seat back to where the front edge was about 7” aft of the center of the boat. Now I need to mount the portage yoke.


With the solo seat I can't paddle with the yoke in place so it needs to be removable. The Escapade has metal center thwart brackets riveted in place. I plan to use them. I am thinking of possibly either:

1. Using the existing holes and 4 bolts with wing nuts. They are maybe #10 sized holes or slightly larger.
2. Using two ¼” bolts (one on each side) with wing nuts or knobs.
3. Using two ¼” threaded inserts (one on each side) in the yoke and knobs with ¼” threads.

The wing nuts or knobs would be on the underside in all cases.

I am leaning toward choice #3. I have all of the necessary hardware in hand for that. Strangely enough I don’t have the more common hardware for choices #1 or #2, not that having the hardware on hand should be the deciding factor.

​​​​​​​Thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Guest]

Pete, I am not a fan of wing nuts in canoe outfitting; screwing them in upside down, sight unseen, with cold wet fingers, dropping them, hopefully in the bilge, not in the river.

I like option #3 with threaded inserts and knobs.

Alternatively something like Wenonah’s removable yoke kit

https://wenonah.com/Items.aspx?id=58

That can be DIY’ed with parts of a door hinge and a couple pins. What remains on the inwale can be seen here on a Wenonah Rendezvous.

IMG015 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I have to ask, are you the Pete Staehling of “Pete’s Whitewater Page”? If so, long time no see. The admin of this board remembers your page of river stories fondly, as do I.

 

[PeteStaehling]

I have to ask, are you the Pete Staehling of “Pete’s Whitewater Page”? If so, long time no see. The admin of this board remembers your page of river stories fondly, as do I.

Yes that is me. I wish I could find a backup of that page somewhere. There was some great stuff on it. There just may be one around here somewhere, but I have long since lost track of it.

Oh, and yeah, I am leaning toward the inserts and knobs, but the Wenonah hardware looks interesting and DIYing something like that from a hinge seems possible. I'll probably make the plunge one way or the other this morning.

 

[Guest]

I am leaning toward the inserts and knobs, but the Wenonah hardware looks interesting and DIYing something like that from a hinge seems possible

Pete, here’s a photo of a folding, removable bed platform built into the back of a cargo van done with hinge parts and pins.

PA221274 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

My preferred option, at least for roof racks to water or short portages, is to install a strap yoke. See posts #5 and #12 above on this thread. I have strap yokes on every solo (and had them on a couple 3-seat tandems). I like the fact that the strap yoke is always there and connects/disconnects in seconds.

 

[PeteStaehling]

I went ahead and drilled the 1/4" holes in the brackets and installed the threaded inserts. Then I discovered that the knobs that I intended to use had male threads that were not 1/4-20. I think they are either 6mm or 1/4-24 I didn't check which. Anyway I found some little knobs that were not as suitable but were the right thread. I'll probably either get some bigger knobs or make some wood ones on the lathe. I have made a lot of them for other projects with a carriage bolt, a nut, and a chunk of hardwood and they always worked out well.

In any case the tiny one piece solid steel knobs will serve until I get around to doing something else.

 

[PeteStaehling]

I went out for a quick couple mile paddle and tried out the new yoke. It was easy on and off and I like the way the boat slides along my shoulders/upper back going on to and off of a fairly tall vehicle. Glad it is just tall enough that I can still slide the boat from shoulders to rack. In years gone by when lifting boats, even aluminum Grummans onto and off of vans was no big deal that would not have been a factor but sadly I am getting old and it is increasingly so. Old age and decent health beats either not being able to do stuff at all or being dead by a long shot though.

All of this outfitting for sitting in a canoe and paddling while sitting is new to me. In the past I'd always kneel and always with thigh straps or braces and foot braces at that unless maybe hopping in someone else's boat that lacked the braces. Don't get me wrong, I am finding it pleasant, but it has been a learning experience so far.

The foam blocks you glue in to brace against have me thinking more about the sharp brackets that Wenonah pop riveted in for the center thwart. I figure that I need to either glue in some foam there to keep my knees off of them or make some little braces that attach to the brackets when the yoke isn't in place.

 

[PeteStaehling]

Pete, here’s a photo of a folding, removable bed platform built into the back of a cargo van done with hinge parts and pins.

I'll remember that trick and use it sometime.

 

[Guest]

All of this outfitting for sitting in a canoe and paddling while sitting is new to me. In the past I'd always kneel and always with thigh straps or braces and foot braces at that unless maybe hopping in someone else's boat that lacked the braces. Don't get me wrong, I am finding it pleasant, but it has been a learning experience so far.

The foam blocks you glue in to brace against have me thinking more about the sharp brackets that Wenonah pop riveted in for the center thwart. I figure that I need to either glue in some foam there to keep my knees off of them or make some little braces that attach to the brackets when the yoke isn't in place.

Pete, I am an admitted comfort wuss. My old-man paddling motto is “If it’s not the most comfortable seat in the house I can make it so”. As a 95% sitter there are three things I want, and have, in all of our canoes

Minicel “knee bumpers” on or below the inwales, both for some cushion, and so my knee spread is appropriately endomorph distanced. That leg spread locked-in comfort, for me, is neither Catholic Schoolgirl knees-pressed-together, nor weary splayed hooker. Depending on the typically 26 – 28 inches for my semi-squat physique. YMMV.

If the knee bumper minicel is a bit oversized to start with, once contact cemented in place a little shaping and sanding will make perfect dimples for your knees, all the better (and more comfortable) with which to “lock” in place.

Insisting on that knee bumper comfort in solo canoes I wanted it as well in tandems. And not just knee bumper cushions in the stern me, but also for the bow paddler.

P7140005 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Next, a foot brace, providing oppositional, locked-in paddling force. Padded for wussy barefoot comfort of course.

P4060718 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

And a back band, something low and flexible for torso rotation, not a high rigid backrest.

Eh, maybe four things; some arse padding on the seat. I fix a couple slightly loose straps around the seat frame to hold the pad in place when my butt isn’t weighing it down on shore breaks or in camp.

P7140013 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

OK, fivesixseveneight things, the rest personal proclivities. I want some over/under/over bungee on the thwarts, makes a nice place to stuff a spare paddle blade shoved under a drilled ball or dowel, or for miscellaneous items like hat and sunglasses.

Some webbing loops on the shank end of every machine screw. Those make the stoutest gunwale-height tie points possible, with no drilling, just melt a hole in some folded over webbing with the pointy end of a hot 20-penny nail and stick them under washers/nuts.

P4060715 by Mike McCrea, on Flick

Deck bungee keepers for painter line. On big deck plates I like a contiguous Z of bungee, stopper knotted at each end. The diagonal underside bungee is handy at times.

P4060720 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Wenonah’s winkydink end caps suck for bungee application. I install a short, lightweight painter keeper platform, recessed under-inwale. Again, a single length of bungee, run diagonally under the recessedplatform provides additional underside keepage. I really like that the coiled painter is held below the sheerline.

P4150011 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

BTW, pull the bitter end of that painter line and it will play out unsnarled easily. The still-visible, left in place single run of bungee remaining on the winkydink deck cap left a lot to be desired as painter keepers. It stood way too proud as a swamp branch offering, and I was forever 50/50 chance pulling the painter out from the wrong side of the bungee.

Seveneightnine. Some D-rings, once I figure out where best strategically located for my float bag/gear use. A minicel wedge or two, to hold/trap the rolypoly barrel securely in place. Maybe some multi-purpose under-inwale lacing, for floatation or gear.

The Wenonah adjustable foot brace and Surf-to-Summit Performance-Pro back bands run a few well worth-it bucks, but the rest, minicel, bungee cord, 1” webbing, piece of old sleeping pad are dirt cheap comfort.

hope to entice my wife to paddle tandem with me. She has expressed some interest and was a good paddling partner in the distant past so I have reason to be optimistic

A comfy back band, a little minicel padding contact cemented in place, custom shaped for the Missus knees, some arse padding on the seat - RidgeRest padding is a godsend in a bucket seat - a little bow bungee providing places to secure her miscellanea, etc M’lady outfitting. . . . .

Or even a full blown bow paddler utility thwart. Soloists and habitual stern paddles may have blocked out memories of paddling bow on long trips. The horror. . . . .the horror. . . . .

The bow position can be fun, but sucks for any secure, level place to store things, and often offers little in the way of comfort.

“If mama ain’t happy. . . .”

 

[PeteStaehling]

Right now I am sorting out the whole seated paddling experience so I am going slow with the outfitting as I figure it all out. So far I have not really felt the need for much outfitting, but I have only been paddling 2-3 miles in the morning so far.

I always went pretty much all out with outfitting in whitewater boats, so I may or may not find I do the same with this boat.

 

[Guest]

Right now I am sorting out the whole seated paddling experience so I am going slow with the outfitting as I figure it all out. So far I have not really felt the need for much outfitting, but I have only been paddling 2-3 miles in the morning so far.

I always went pretty much all out with outfitting in whitewater boats, so I may or may not find I do the same with this boat.

Pete, I consider some elements of the seated outfitting on our canoes much the same as WW outfitting with kneeling pads and thigh straps and etc.

The foot brace and back band provide oppositional force resistance < ---- > and take some strain off my core muscles. In combination with minicel knee bumpers at the inwales I can essentially “lock into” the canoe while seated with five points of contact – feet, knees and lower back.

For me those are not just comfort elements, they provide a degree of boat control I can’t achieve while sitting loosely on a seat. Most often I am just lightly resting my feet, knees and back on those padded supports, but when I want or need to I can firm up a bit in that five point seated “stance” for better boat and body coordination/control.

 

[PeteStaehling]

Pete, I consider some elements of the seated outfitting on our canoes much the same as WW outfitting with kneeling pads and thigh straps and etc.

The foot brace and back band provide oppositional force resistance < ---- > and take some strain off my core muscles. In combination with minicel knee bumpers at the inwales I can essentially “lock into” the canoe while seated with five points of contact – feet, knees and lower back.

For me those are not just comfort elements, they provide a degree of boat control I can’t achieve while sitting loosely on a seat. Most often I am just lightly resting my feet, knees and back on those padded supports, but when I want or need to I can firm up a bit in that five point seated “stance” for better boat and body coordination/control.

That makes perfect sense. The thing is, I am still sorting out my seated paddling form and figure I will make better outfitting decisions after I have a little more time in the boat. The first thing I plan to add is the knee/thigh pads on the sides.

 

[Guest]

That makes perfect sense. The thing is, I am still sorting out my seated paddling form and figure I will make better outfitting decisions after I have a little more time in the boat. The first thing I plan to add is the knee/thigh pads on the sides.

That makes sense as well. Once you have knee pads under* the inwales it is easier to figure out your leg placement for a foot brace.

*Under, and sometimes covering the inner edge of the inwale. In some deep hulls my knees make contact below the inwales. But on many of our canoes I have minicel knee braces contact cemented so that the side of the inwale is also cushion covered.

If it is say a ¾” deep inwale I first contact cement a ¾” thick piece of minicel immediately below the inwale, to provide a flush surface all the way to the sheerline, and then contact cement a second piece of minicel covering that and the inwale edge.

I round off all of the exposed right angle minicel edges to reduce sheer forces when getting into the canoe.

 

[Guest]

The first thing I plan to add is the knee/thigh pads on the sides.

We have minicel knee bumpers that also serve as thigh braces in several boats. In the easiest version are simply piece of minicel cut with a band saw to form a wedge angle on either side under the inwales, essentially this.
|_/

I can kinda sorta lock my legs thighs under that wedge. Better fitting as thigh braces are these in the Sockeye.

P7200019 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

There is a lot of custom curvature in that minicel, incrementally shaped with Dragonskin so that they fit my knees pressed sideways and my thighs hooked underneath.

The massive minicel bumpers on the Penobscot are not pretty – wish I had had a slab of grey minicel – but they are designed, curved and contoured so that I can press my knees against or hook my thighs under them.

IMG020 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The soloized Penobscot is 30” wide where my knees/thighs hit, so I needed some big wide minicel to shape. I wasn’t sure exactly how much length and depth I needed, so they started a bit oversized and, once contact cemented in place, I did the initial shaping with a coping saw.

Looks funky, don’t much care; those are the most comfortable, efficient knee/thigh braces in any boat we own.

Also an example of why I like paddle pockets bow and stern and multiple shaft restraints on spray covers. Double blade, straight single, bent single, push pole/hiking staff, furled sail.

 

[Patrick Corry]

I'm fortunate to have acquired a wood/canvas canoe recently. I've been out getting accustomed to the canoe in my local lake and in spite of having probably logged several thousand miles in my paddling career, this boat is unlike any before.

The boat was originally built as a solo, at 15' long x 31" wide (outside of gunwales) at the center. It's depth at center is probably about 14". Prior to my purchase the original builder re-rigged the boat as a tandem- it's 26" wide at the bow seat, and 24" wide at the stern seat. The front edge of the original solo seat is 6 3/4" behind canoe center.

My original intent was to immediately return it to solo. However, in the meantime I began paddling it solo in the traditional manner- paddling "backwards' while sitting on the bow seat. In that configuration the leading edge of the solo paddling seat is 23" behind the mid-point of the canoe, where the dedicated portaging yoke is located. Without additional weight in the bow the canoe catches a lot of wind, and control is questionable sometimes. I've been paddling with a 4 gallon bucket filled with water lodged in the 'bow' and this has made all the difference. I hate the appearance but it works. This adds about 33 lbs. of weight up front. For appearance I may try to find a bladder which would hold the same amount of water, which could then lie on the floor of the canoe up closer to the 'bow'.

So, this leads me to believe that once I've loaded tripping gear in the boat, the 'backwards' bow seat paddling location should work fine. I don't think I'll return it to solo, since that would require removing the portage yoke, and then tripping would become more difficult.

As an aside, I can't get over how much I like this canoe. It's aesthetically pleasing, and paddling it is a dream now that I'm accustomed to it. I had been searching for a modern, composite, light weight dedicated solo canoe, and kept passing over this boat on Facebook Marketplace. Eventually, I thought... why the heck not? It just kept 'speaking' to me and I'm glad I finally listened! I'm hoping to take it to the St. Regis canoe area in the Adirondacks within the next two weeks.