Pulling Canoe

[Guest]

Red,

I wish that were the case but as I've been tracking this minor issue for some time now, I've asked her to stop paddling and sometimes I will just stop and not tell her to see what the boat does.

I realize that I may have confounded a few different things with my original observation but I have since then learned much more. Having two boats helps because I can assume that we paddle somewhat the same but can see changes that the hull shape brings.

As such, the specific case when I notice this 'pull' as I have called it, which I believe now is rather a push... it can go in either direction and can and will persist despite changing weight ballast and power. I've finally conceded and when it does happen I just switch sides and have us both paddle the opposite side of the push. That works best and I can easily keep speed.

 

[red langford]

That's unfortunate you have a canoe that performs like that.

 

[Guest]

I don't think it is a big deal. It seems fine when going into the wind or downwind...

 

[memaquay]

As you paddle more and different types of canoes, you will notice that you like some better than others. And as you paddle more and more, you will find that the problems you are describing will begin to disappear. You will be making the corrections for the different characteristics of the hull instinctively, without even thinking about it. Sometimes, our thought processes are best left silent. I've always liked asymmetrical hulls with differentiated rocker for tripping canoes. I also like symmetrical canoes. I'm not sure if i paddle them both the same way, I just let my body do the work. I'm taking a trip with a big barge of a 20 footer this weekend, weighs about 120 pounds. Fortunately, only one port. The only difference I've noticed is that I'm sitting up real high (I Like that!) and my body keeps saying "paddle Harder!" (I don't really like that). That's about as complicated as it gets for me.

 

[Guest]

I think you mean...

"Shut up and paddle!"

 

[memaquay]

Ha ha, nothing like that, some folks are analytical, I admire that, and need to do more of it!

 

[Guest]

Ha ha, nothing like that, some folks are analytical, I admire that, and need to do more of it!

Yeah to the point of having what is called "analysis paralysis"!

I get bored and I am curious... so I ask... I've learned a lot that way.

 

[yellowcanoe]

There is a center of rotation in a boat. Because at rest it is in the middle of the boat and when underway is much closer to the bow paddler the bow paddler has less effect on rotation than the stern paddler. Its analogous to the big weight with the short arm being exactly counterbalanced with the little weight and long arm (stern),

There should NEVER be any following of the gunwale by EITHER paddler. As the stern has the most steering influence it's imperative to get a vertical parallel to the keel line stroke. There isn't anything as a natural sweep by the stern unless the stern paddles with too long a stroke bringing the paddle shaft past the hip.

Forward strokes are short. !8 inches at most. Ending well ahead of the hip, the J stroke can be virtually eliminated. Without crabbing or sideslipping. Some of the testing we do does not permit much straying from the buoyline.

Google pivot point canoe and talk to some canoe designers and by all means read John Winters "Shape of the Canoe"

Gavia, my comment is something I have learned from many many Instructor Trainers and several canoe builders and designers. Its not my original idea. But I have taught enough canoeing to apply the principle for modeling and also have my students experience that for themselves.

Now it is true that once the stern person starts the stern skidding the bow paddler can do alot to accentuate the turn because after the skid starts the stern has no influence at all.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I just had a major AHA moment earlier today!

It seems so simple now I can't believe I missed it earlier.

I KNOW (I think) why the Keewaydin pulls! It isn't consistent, but it should be consistent with the wind...

Bow height 20", stern height 17"! And looking at the profile it is pretty obvious...

Issue is the bow catches more crosswind than the stern.

I doubt an asymmetrical sheer line is the issue.

Lots of canoes have asymmetrical sheer lines, even ones that have symmetrical water lines and symmetrical rocker lines such as the Yost-Wilson Fire trio now made by Colden Canoe. The paddlers' body profiles would affect windage more than a slightly rising bow sheer.

In any event, the sheer line windage theory is easy enough to test. Just paddle the "pulling canoe" on currentless water when there is no wind.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

A 7th theory

A 7th theory

Earlier, I posited six theories to explain the pull to the bow paddler's on-side. I forgot one: the bow paddler is inducing a "hidden" static draw and/or dynamic draw component into her forward stroke.

I agree with YC that the bow paddler has little leverage on a pure forward stroke (parallel to the keel line), or even on a sweep forward stroke, to influence an off-side turn. But that's sort of irrelevant because l'oiseau is describing an on-side turn phenomenon. A bow paddler can easily induce an on-side turn with a static or dynamic draw.

Here's the "hidden draw" scenario: While the bow paddler is reaching away from the canoe on her plant -- attempting to begin a pull stroke parallel to the keel line -- she is actually planting her entry with a slightly opened face (i.e., not perpendicular) to the keel line. This open face will induce a slight static draw component into the stroke at entry, inducing a slight on-side pull. To compound this, the bow paddler then might not make her pull parallel to the keel line. Instead, she may actually be pulling at a slight angle toward the keel line. This will induce a dynamic draw component into her forward stroke, which will induce or further accentuate an on-side pull.

Both the static draw and dynamic draw components of the bow paddler's putative forward stroke will tend to slow forward velocity vis-a-vis a pure (parallel to the keel line) forward stroke. As the boat slows slightly due to this, the sweep component in the stern paddler's highly leveraged forward stroke may further drive the bow to the bow paddler's on-side. In other words, the bow paddler's draw component is slowing the bow while the stern paddler's stronger stroke is overpowering the slow bow and increasing the turning tendency to the bow's on-side.

You could test this theory by putting an experienced marathon racer of the same size as the pully spouse in the bow. Marathon racers know the most about the technical aspects of forward tandem efficiency. (I note parenthetically that a pully spouse is more tolerable, in general, than a pushy spouse.)

 

[Guest]

Glenn,

Watching my wife paddle and being in the bow myself the other day... well I don't know? It looks as though she may not put the paddle in perpendicular to the keel line but it may be an optical illusion due to the curvature of the gunwale. It definitely looks as though she paddles the keel line, which I try to do myself unless purposely trying to sweep the paddle to turn to my off side.

I've yet to really notice the issue in our symmetrical canoe, or at least one that couldn't be attributed to weight. I think that may just be fooling me because the stern possibly isn't as sticky as the Keewaydin, it has more stern rocker and less in the bow, which makes it a bit easier to steer from the rear.

Probably the Kee is just a more sensitive boat, to all inputs be it wind or poor strokes in the bow and less so in the stern, which makes it feel strange to me sometimes.

Keep in mind I paddled a Radisson 14' canoe for 5 years before I ever got a real canoe. That thing spun like a top even though it had keel to give it forward stability. It's short, wide stance coupled with what I believe to be pretty substantial rocker at the ends (the bottom was dead flat) made it easy to spin in either direction with a sweep or J from the stern. And I am giving myself too much credit... I didn't even J stroke back then, I would goon stroke that silly foam and aluminum catastrophe!

 

[Guest]

I need to get someone to watch us in the boat. I've had experienced paddlers comment and say we do real well, but they weren't instructors either.

 

[charlie wilson]

William of Ockham came up with a concept circa 1300 that seems to apply here; that is is often unhelpful to invent more complexity than is needed. While William was discussion theological issues, his concept applies universally as Occam's Razor and often address canoeing problems.

The stern is probably exerting some turning force by 1. not using a vertical paddleshaft, 2. paddling along the rail instead of parallel to the keel, 3. carrying the blade too far aft. It could be several other things as mentioned above, including the hull itself. [Old Town's Columbia turned on it's own, left, if memory serves. It's a long story involving multiple layers of Bondo on a splashed hull and not germane, and unlikely with a Curtis/Hemlock/Swift bottom. It is very easy to set up a yaw couple, which becomes self fulfilling.

A finely trained observer might help. The best Mk II eyeballs belong to David Yost and Tom MacKenzie. Yost is local to you, MacKenzie is in South Carolina but will be in the Adirondacks this July. Alternatively, try semi-overhead video shot from a bridge for more self analysis.

bon chance

 

[Guest]

It isn't the boat, I found it can happen in another canoe and it doesn't happen all the time.

It seems to correlate with my wife being tired... I think I just overpower the bow in that situation and the Keewaydin sticks in the stern, making it seem difficult to correct.

I've found the Kee to be very sensitive to the wind... the bow seems to wander more readily than my Eagle.

I've just conceded to paddle on the same side as the bow when this happens and I can easily control it, whether it be wind, trim or lack of bow power.

 

[ppine]

Some bow paddlers, especially shorter people with longer paddles tend to sweep somewhat when they apply a forward stroke.

It is very instructive to switch positions in a canoe. I will never forget the first time I paddled with an expert person in the bow of my Wenonah Odyssey. He made the canoe go anywhere he wanted to. The amount of influence that bow paddlers have is under-rated.