One All-Around Canoe for Maine Tripping

[Coop]

I have been canoeing in Maine since around 1985 in the days when we flew with canoes attached to the float planes. I met Milford Kidney at Lock Dam on what might have been his last year as dam keeper. I have done the St. Croix, East Branch Penobscot, Upper West Branch Penobscot and the Allagash half a dozen times. I plan to retire in Maine soon. I have always rented canoes from outfitters. I didn't even know what I was renting back in the '80's, but likely Old Town Trippers in Royalex. Nowadays, the outfitters are renting Old Town Discovery 169's which are lead sleds at about 91 lbs.. I thought I was just getting old when I picked up a Discovery 169. I never even paid attention to canoe materials or weights or designs until now.

My most recent trip was on the Allagash this past September. The water was CRAZY high (like 8,000 cf/s) the day we started. Anyway, I packed WAY too much heavy gear and after I got home I started looking into lighter gear from everything from sleeping bags and tents to canoes and paddles.

I am trying to decide what to buy for my first canoe. I want it to be a jack of all trades. I would like to do a bit more technical whitewater, like on other rivers in Maine such as the Machias. Multi night trips with up to Class I-III stuff. I have pretty much decided that T-Formex is the only material for me on whitewater. (I bounce off a lot of rocks.) I find the Royalex story very odd. I just can't figure out why a company would just suddenly stop making such a successful product like that. I know, corporate profits. Probably the same reason Old Town refuses to make anything other than polyethylene now. The sell plenty of plastic boats, and the average canoeist doesn't know the difference. Heck, i didn't know the difference until I started educating myself the last several weeks.

Anyway, I really respect what the Esquif Company did by developing T-Formex and they will likely earn my business. I am leaning heavily toward a Prospecteur Sport. I prefer Class I to III whitewater river trip to lakes. Canoeing up Eagle or Chamberlain Lake against the wind sucks no matter what you are driving, so I won't risk "spoiling" a composite boat on the rocks, just to make lake paddling easier. If I end up doing a lot of flatwater, I can always pick up a composite boat from Wenonah. But I just don't see anything that competes with a Prospecteur 16 Prospecteur 16 Sport for what I want to do. I have seen some decent used Royalex Old Towns and Mad Rivrers for sale. But I think I will shell out the extra bucks for a new Esquif.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

At the end, the only market for Royalex was for a small part of the canoe market, itself a niche market, which made continued production for Spartech unprofitable. So, the product died. T-Formex seems to be a reasonable substitute.

I haven't paddled either, but both the Prospecteur 16 and Prospecteur Sport 16 would seem to meet your needs. They are very close in specs and both have significant rocker, but the Sport having .75 inch more, which makes me think the Sport may be a little better in rapids and a little worse on windy lakes. All canoes are difficult in wind, but I know from experience that highly rockered whitewater canoes can be near impossible.

I believe in buying a canoe type primarily designed for your primary usage if you can only have one. If you can have two, then get another primarily designed for your secondary usage.

 

[Coop]

At the end, the only market for Royalex was for a small part of the canoe market, itself a niche market, which made continued production for Spartech unprofitable. So, the product died. T-Formex seems to be a reasonable substitute.

From what I have read, the canoe market was virtually the only market for Royalex. However, it seems that it was a fairly significant portion of the canoe market. If Esquif can make a ABS/foam composite that is almost the same as Royalex, and make all its canoes out of it, and be profitable, then it seems odd that PolyOne couldn't be profitable on Royalex. Oh well, that's water under the bridge.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Who knows if T-Formex is profitable for Esquif. Wenonah seems to be the only other big company that has adopted it. Maybe it will disappear too.

 

[recped]

I'm assuming this is for solo use, generally for trips one week or less in duration.

I am leaning heavily toward a Prospecteur Sport

Not a bad way to lean! I have no personal experience, the specs are good for your use (it's a bit too wide for me), I like the bit of additional depth over the regular Prospecteur 15, the flare will help as well. The esquif's I have paddled, Vertige & Pocket Canyon tend to take on water right where a solo seat is located. Build quality for esquif is usually pretty good (maybe not absolute top quality).

I'm sure you will get a number of other suggestions, everybody has their favourite brands/boats (I've been tripping in Mohawk XL14's for the last few years.

I find the Royalex story very odd. I just can't figure out why a company would just suddenly stop making such a successful product like that. I know, corporate profits.

Royalex was never a (financially) successful product, if it ever was profitable it was way back in the original (1970's) days when Uniroyal introduced it. Spartech kept making it for many years before being taken over by Poly One, that was the end of Royalex, Poly One shut down the production facility.

In any event T-Formex is essentially the same product as Royalex, the manufacturing process is the same, the raw materials basically the same with maybe a few tweaks to the formulae. It works for esquif only because THEY can use them for their own boats, they had very little takers from other canoe manufacturers except Wenonah. I have no insider information but Quebec can be very tax friendly and help with financing to QC based companies. There is no doubt the start up costs for T-Formex were substantial, you need to sell a lot of boats to recoup.

 

[Coop]

I have no insider information but Quebec can be very tax friendly and help with financing to QC based companies. There is no doubt the start up costs for T-Formex were substantial, you need to sell a lot of boats to recoup.

Good point about gov't funding of Quebec based companies. Esquif has been making almost solely T-Formex canoes for several years now. Hopefully they are profitable and will keep making them.

Is there any better canoe material for a river tripping canoe with moderate whitewater than T-Formex?

 

[alsg]

The esquif's I have paddled, Vertige & Pocket Canyon tend to take on water right where a solo seat is located.

Different strokes for different folks! I own and have paddled the Vertige extensively the last year. I'm 5'10" and 214 lbs and have been paddling it nearly every weekend in Class II/II+ with an occasional III. Very dry boat in my experience. But I haven't paddled it with a load of gear. My take is the Vertige is a good down river boat. A little more manueverable than would be necessary on, say, the Allagash. Has good glide for its length (12'10"). But the OP might be better off with one of the longer Prospector models on the headwater lakes and slow moving sections of those North Maine Woods rivers like the Allagash.

T-Formex is indistringuishable to me from Royalex.

 

[GeoBoy]

Take a look at a Northstar canoe in IXP layup or a Souris River canoe in their whitewater layup.

 

[ppine]

The OT 169 is really a kind of baby Tripper. Both are good boats for rivers. Rocker is important and some depth. We don't portage hardly at all out West and line the boats sometimes. Heavy canoes are not that much of a problem. I paddled a OT Guide 18 in wood and canvas for 30 years. When it was wet it weight about 92 pounds.

I like a lot of rocker in canoes for rivers and no keels. Depth is hard to find sometimes. Fourteen inches is good but 15 is even better. The OT was a big canoe but only 12 inches deep. Fiberglass and kevlar can take some rock hits and are easiest to repair.

 

[yellowcanoe]

If you want to paddle Maine rivers no matter what the water levels, RX and T Formex are the way to go. Yes I have lived in Maine for 25 years and have paddled the Allagash in a Kevlar boat but the water levels were quite high and a wrap not going to happen. If you can scrape Uncle Henrys regularly you might find a OT Tripper for sale. Those old RX boats last forever.. Better yet a OT Kennebec. Both manageable on lakes and they are very good poling boats. in old age we have gone to carbon fiber for lightness and just avoid rapids unless there is a lot of water over the rocks.

 

[recped]

Different strokes for different folks! I own and have paddled the Vertige extensively the last year. I'm 5'10" and 214 lbs and have been paddling it nearly every weekend in Class II/II+ with an occasional III. Very dry boat in my experience. But I haven't paddled it with a load of gear.

I was thinking Class III with big wave trains while fully loaded and mostly the Pocket Canyon as the Vertige is a bit on the small size.

 

[Keeled Over]

At the end, the only market for Royalex was for a small part of the canoe market, itself a niche market, which made continued production for Spartech unprofitable. So, the product died. T-Formex seems to be a reasonable substitute.

I haven't paddled either, but both the Prospecteur 16 and Prospecteur Sport 16 would seem to meet your needs. They are very close in specs and both have significant rocker, but the Sport having .75 inch more, which makes me think the Sport may be a little better in rapids and a little worse on windy lakes. All canoes are difficult in wind, but I know from experience that highly rockered whitewater canoes can be near impossible.

I believe in buying a canoe type primarily designed for your primary usage if you can only have one. If you can have two, then get another primarily designed for your secondary usage.

And then, with the third one, you don't have to worry about parking your car in the garage anymore......

 

[Paddlinhal]

When I go tripping in Maine, I leave the Royalex boats at home and take my MR Kevlar Explorer. High water, low water, whatever. The gel coat takes a beating, but Kevlar always gets a bad rap. It's tough. And easy to throw on your shoulders. But if I woke up one day without the 10 boats I have kicking around, I would probably choose the Esquif Prospecteur. My buddy has one and we've tandem paddled some Class III, and each soloed our own fully loaded boats down the Penobscot between Old Town and Brewer at high water (Class III+). We both got about the same amount of wet. So yeah, go for it.

 

[MrPoling]

Is there any better canoe material for a river tripping canoe with moderate whitewater than T-Formex?

Northstar's IXP and Nova Crafts Tuff Stuff are supposed to be as robust as T-formex but lighter and stiffer. If I was after a new do-it-all canoe I'd probably look at their boats.

I really favor stiffer hulls whenever practical, they just paddle better.

I'd like to hear more from people who have those boats and have used them in white water.

 

[ppine]

My brother found an old Wenonah Cascade. It is an old Royalex boat that is 15 inches deep. I think the length is 17 1/2 feet with lots of rocker. It is amazing that there are not more river tripping boats like that out there.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Is there any better canoe material for a river tripping canoe with moderate whitewater than T-Formex?

After going through a parade of royalex and royalite canoes, and assuming reports that T-Formex is essentially the same thing - I'm going to have to say "probably yes".

Composite canoes aren't all as fragile as the popular narrative suggests. My skin coat kevlar Clipper Solitude is obviously not a whitewater design, but I wouldn't be a bit afraid to paddle it amongst rocks in current or waves. It's a very robust build, weighing in at about 47 lbs. A 14' Prospector in Clipper's Kevlar/Duraflex is listed at 46 lbs, so I would expect it to be at least as durable, if not more. That would be high on my list of desirable hulls for up to class 3, and frankly, I have no doubt that it would outlast any vinyl skinned canoe when both are subjected to the same life of typical bumps and scrapes . Pins and wraps are another matter, but that's what float bags are for avoiding.

I'd probably be just as confident in something in Northstar's IXP or Nova Craft's Tuff Stuff.

@Coop , did you ever choose your canoe?

 

[Pseudonym]

I think we can all agree that Maine is rocky, which is why most of the above conversation focused on relative durability. I've only ever owned and paddled Royalex boats (OT Discos and Trippers and an early-Bell-Wildfire, i.e. "Yellowstone") so I don't have a composite point of reference.

Aside from resisting impact, how do composite boats slide over and off of rocks? The vinyl outer layer of Royalex is relatively soft and yields to the course face of a rock, and therefore slides pretty well. Kevlar and other composites strike me as harder, so I'm wondering if they're any more likely to catch and hold on a course edge, especially if the texture of the fabric weave is near the surface of the resin.

So... how slippery are composites? I've dragged a lot of heavy boats down shallow rivers, and through a lot of point bars because I took a poor line and missed the thalweg. Royalex makes an indominable sled.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I think we can all agree that Maine is rocky, which is why most of the above conversation focused on relative durability. I've only ever owned and paddled Royalex boats (OT Discos and Trippers and an early-Bell-Wildfire, i.e. "Yellowstone") so I don't have a composite point of reference.

Aside from resisting impact, how do composite boats slide over and off of rocks? The vinyl outer layer of Royalex is relatively soft and yields to the course face of a rock, and therefore slides pretty well. Kevlar and other composites strike me as harder, so I'm wondering if they're any more likely to catch and hold on a course edge, especially if the texture of the fabric weave is near the surface of the resin.

So... how slippery are composites? I've dragged a lot of heavy boats down shallow rivers, and through a lot of point bars because I took a poor line and missed the thalweg. Royalex makes an indominable sled.

I've only ever had a few composites with gel-coat. I have managed to keep them away from rocks pretty much, but those few times they got scraped, I didn't think they were hanging up. The skin coat boats slide over as well as anything, IME. The bottom of my glass over kev poling canoe is covered with surface scratches because it spends a lot of time in bony shoals. It slides over everything just fine.

The thing about royalex and that the vinyl layer wears off easily and quickly. That's why so many of them have been cursed with kev felt skid plates. The rx boats are more likely to "survive" a wrap, but abrasion will eat them up faster than any composite hull I've had. Once that ABS layer is exposed, UV will soon make it brittle if not covered. I've had a few hard hits in rx canoes that left big dents. I've had similar hits in my Millbrook Coho that left just a scratch (surprised me too!).

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Assuming this . . .

I have managed to keep them away from rocks pretty much

. . . I mostly agree with Steve that you can run rivers in strong composite canoes without fear of destruction. It's a function of two things.

1. Whitewater (or at least very good moving water) skills. A skilled river canoeist simply isn't going to hit that many rocks when on the water. That's part of the skill.

2. Choosing what rivers to run. If a river is so low that hitting and constantly scraping over rocks is unavoidable by any skill, you don't run that river. You portage or go elsewhere.

For day tripping in whitewater, after I became skilled enough and was unlikely to wrap a canoe, I preferred the lighter weight of a composite canoe to a Royalex canoe. I accepted the fact that it would get scratched up and eventually need patches.

Now, if you're on a remote wilderness trip and have no choice but to bang down, line or track an extremely low and bony river—or you need to drag over rocks for long distances on portages—then I might prefer to be in a Royalex canoe. I'd guess the vinyl layer of Royalex may be somewhat more "slidable" than composite, but they both will eventually wear, and you will have to repair severe abrasions on both with essentially the same epoxy and composite patches. And all this has to be balanced against the significantly lighter carry weight of a composite canoe, all in the context of your particular age and strength and how many portages there are on your particular route.

That's all personal opinion from my personal experience. The most empirically valid way for anyone to compare the benefits of Royalex vs. composite vs. wood/canvas on a particular water trail is to buy boats made from the different materials and see what happens.

But for moving and whitewater, GET INSTRUCTION or you'll likely flounder, screw up and damage any boat. It takes lots of experience and practice to read and execute in swiftly moving water, especially with rocks.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I think maybe a lot is going to depend on your rocks too. What I see here in Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, and other places I've been is mostly old river worn rounded rock. It seems to me that vinyl layers are still easily wearing on that - leaving evidence of that like a trail of paint - while the skin of my composite boats leaves no obvious residue, and the scratches are not as deep. Perhaps less aged or more fractured rock will be less kind to both with no favoring of either. And then there's the oyster bars I keep reading about. Mmmmm oyster....bars. Yum.

I'd have to agree that there is a degree of intensity and or remoteness that would make me want an ABS hull, but that's more dream than reality for me at this point.