Old Town "Next"

[Jimmy The Jet]

"Maybe... the OP will listen", "Whining", "rationalize a crapty plastic bathtub", "just ridiculous", "a boot in the arse" ?? Wow. That helps us all understand why you travel solo. Doesn't help me with my question, though.

I thought a solo canoe forum would be a place I could ask for some help regarding solo canoes, with consideration to the supply problems where I live. I wasn't really looking to hang my research on your "suck it up and do what I did" bullpucky response. In fact, you didn't address the topic at all, you just reiterated what Mr. Wilson said, and insulted both him and me. I'm sorry that my inability to drop life for a week or so to go driving around the country, and another country in search of the ultimate boat so that I don't have to spend $3000, "miffs" you. I guess I don't get to reap the rewards of being unemployed and alone.

Thanks once again, Yellowcanoe, for the suggestion about Gibson Creek. I looked them up on FB, and they may have some options. I'm calling them today..

They sell the Esquif Echo, and a few others, but I'm afraid to ask about them here...

 

[pblanc]

I sympathize with the OP. Three thousand dollars is a heck of a lot of money to pay for a canoe, especially if one has to commit to it sight unseen without having paddled one.

Regarding the Next, I and others are making assumptions about its performance based on what dimensions are available, a few photos, a few videos, and prior experience with hulls of similar construction and similar size and shape. Making those assumptions is somewhat dangerous, but what else can one do when a boat has not yet been released for public consumption? No one here has seen a Next in the flesh, let alone paddled one I will wager.

But it is important to note that there is a world of difference between a boat like the Rapidfire and the Next beyond the $2000 difference in price. The Rapidfire is a very stiff boat that will paddle better than any polyethylene boat of similar size. I have no doubt that it will hold its value better. There is an enormous difference between laying 15 carbon and 16 aramid pieces into a mold and vacuum infusing a hull and dumping three loads of "coke" in a rotomold, pushing a button to start the computer program and send it into the oven, and eating a sandwich while it cooks. But the biggest difference over time is bound to be the weight difference. The Rapidfire weighs 28 lbs and has much more space to carry gear. The Next claims to weigh 55 lbs, but I won't be at all surprised if it turns out to be more like 60 lbs. And the Placid Spitfire 13, which is the same length and width as the Next, weighs 22-26 lbs. , less than half as much. That is a difference that you will be reminded of every time you pick the boat up and one that will become more significant as you get older.

 

[Guest]

Well, then don't pay $3000 for said boat. That was my whole point but Mr. Jet took it all wrong. I only flamed him because my advice, which was the same as Charlie's, only two post's earlier, wasn't valid until CEW said it. That's the bullpucky.

There are many ways to get a boat you want for less than retail but it takes a little work. No one is going to hand you a $3000 retail boat for less. Do some HW, and seriously don't try to rationalize a $1100 piece of plastic being as good as well designed composite. Sounds to me like you're really not too serious about getting whatever it is you are after... a pack canoe? Or just a solo boat in general?

And FWIW, I usually paddle tandem. This isn't a solo canoe forum, it's just a canoe forum AFAIK.

 

[charlie wilson]

My grandpa said never to take offense, especially if intended, so I'll pass on a few absurd insertions, above. From more rational comments, I'm not sure the OP intends to sit low with a double blade, sit higher with a bent or kneel with a straight blade. This will surely effect hull width choices as will height and weight. For what it's worth, I have a several page dimension sheet for every solo canoe currently made and several that can be found used but are NLS; will be glad to forward electronically to requests made to charliewilson77@gmail.com.

Gramps also told me to get the very best of anything needed I could afford, because it's irritate me less than anything lesser, but, we all understand that kid's cloths, waterheaters, woodstoves, books and snow tyres come before canoes and may dent the kitty. I have, at best recall, paid cash for over twenty canoes, many gone to new owners as experienced hulls. I wish I'd bought a few more.

Of course, I've never been much of a salesman; I'm a design guy. Knife fought with DY about length, width, rocker and cross sectional shape on most of the Bell hulls, did the same on many of Placid's and now, to a lessor extent, for Swift. I design trim; Bells wood and aluminum, the wood copied at Placid, and the integral rail system with composite thwarts now used by Colden, Placid and Swift, and I was integral to Placid and Swift quickly acquiring infusion technology. I've developed a lot of lamination schedules an an currently working on infused portage yolks and seating. Bill drags me to shows to deal with the odd buyer with technical questions. I couldn't sell a bottle of Dom Perignon for a ten spot.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I sympathize with the OP too and that's why I mentioned Gibson Creek Canoeing and the Fundy Paddlers. Evan Young is familiar with many solo boats and has access to a few..

On a budget used is the way to go at any rate.

Looking at Kijiji for NS, wouldn't you like a 14 foot Chestnut?? I am sorry I looked..

 

[Guest]

Charlie,

You know I don't always agree with you and I'm not afraid to say it. So if you paid full retail for a Bell, a Placid or your current Swift, then I'd have to say you got screwed.

As for the echo in the room... it always sounds better from a salesman.

 

[Guest]

I sympathize with the OP too and that's why I mentioned Gibson Creek Canoeing and the Fundy Paddlers. Evan Young is familiar with many solo boats and has access to a few..

On a budget used is the way to go at any rate.

Looking at Kijiji for NS, wouldn't you like a 14 foot Chestnut?? I am sorry I looked..

Maybe you ought to show him where you live on a map and all the canoes you have from NY. Maybe that would motivate him to take some action instead of waiting for something to 'float on by'.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I gave my opinion of the NEXT, based on its appearance and specs, on Pnet. It looks like a nice SOB hull at an attractive price point. Expensive composite canoes paddle a little better than plastic, wood-canvas and aluminum, but the difference probably isn't noticeable to most paddlers. The big difference is weight, which is a big deal to me.

I agree with the sentiment that one may have to travel to get a good canoe, especially when you consider it could be lifetime investment. I've bought 17 canoes and kayaks and still have 15 of them. I bought more than half of them without ever paddling them, based simply on their reputation, some without even seeing them. I've never had a canoe shipped to me, and I've traveled very long round-trip distances to bring home canoes on a car:

- from Connecticut to California to get my outrigger canoe
- from New York to Florida twice for Lotus canoes
- from New York to South Carolina and Tennessee for a Whitesell
- from the mid-Hudson valley to the Adirondacks twice
- from Connecticut to Maine
- from Connecticut to Rochester-Hemlock (twice for canoes, once for a paddle)
- and most recently, from Connecticut to Virginia

All these trips were enjoyable and adventuresome. I integrated some into business trips, others into vacations, and all into canoe trips.

 

[Guest]

And I hate to say it guys, but 15 boats is a little absurd for most people... you might have a different point of view about spending a fair deal of money on a canoe but one would think we'd have a few bargain hunters in the room.

I apologize for being rude, but I consider it rude to selectively seek advice. I consider it 'whiny' to say one has their heart set on something and they say, oh geee, I only wish I could do that. People who have their heart set on something actually just go do it in my experience.

And I also consider it strange to rationalize buying something you can't try because it is cheaper.

 

[Jimmy The Jet]

I'm not opposed to taking a drive when time and money allow. I'm also not opposed to $3000 for the right boat, if another option isn't available. I like the light weight of the high end boats like PBW, but weigh that against the fact the kids will be paddling it sometimes, and it will get damaged - so is it worth the money? I'm not opposed to a good used boat, if it's the right boat. All of these are relevant and add to my canoe-buying future. I don't see what the problem is with asking about the NEXT. It's a small solo boat. I have already said the weight isn't a deal breaker for me, but it does weigh-in (nyuk). If the boat paddles well, I'd rather spend the $1000, than traipse around looking for something else. If it is indeed a piece of crap, then I won't buy it. I didn't know if the NEXT was built from a design that everyone knew, or if it was entirely new. Plus, I didn't know if there were folks on here with inside info that may have paddled it. It isn't, and there aren't. So I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

I appreciate the input from many of you, so thanks. Mr. Wilson, I like to change back and forth between sitting and kneeling. If I had an adjustable seat, or something like the Placid, I would switch through all three for variety and experimentation. Not a huge fan of a double blade, but once in a while it's okay. These days, if I get in a kayak, I usually sit and switch with a single paddle. Just because I can. I am sending you a message, cuz I'd like to see your list of dimensions - very helpful, I bet. Mahsi cho!

Now, I'm going do some searches on this forum and others for info on the Echo.

 

[Guest]

Hmm... based on that last post I'd carefully recommend looking for a used fiberglass solo canoe.

Almost any solo boat can be paddled sitting or kneeling, or if not, can be outfitted to do so pretty easily... no need to buy a Placid based on that.

Most Kevlar composite is pretty tough, but fiberglass boats are tougher... so the kids shouldn't be able to kill it. You should also be able to find a really nice one for $1000 to $1500 at most. Given your location, you'd most likely have to buy sight unseen and unpaddled and take a chance. Worst comes to worst, I think you could resell. Fiberglass is a bit tricky because most people want Kevlar - it does make it a bit tougher to resell.

Here's where you need to do a lot of reading and searching.

 

[memaquay]

Hey Jet, I'm from Nova scotia too, mostly Annapolis Valley, but spent time all over the province. I know a lot of those rivers get pretty boney in the summer when they dry up. A poly canoe would not be a bad idea if you are going to do a lot of small river stuff. On the other hand, the Echo looks like a fine canoe. Esquif has an excellent reputation, and although I have never paddled the Echo, I like the looks of it. Is the Trail Shop still in Halifax? Are they carrying any canoes?

Just as an aside, I don't paddle any of these really expensive canoes. I do build strippers of some of the more popular models, such as the Osprey. In fact, I have a brand new Osprey I'm not going to use, if I was making the trip back home I would sell it to you cheap, probably around the same as that old town that has caused such a stir. Geeze, I'd love to see the valley in the fall again, are the trees peaking yet?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Maybe you ought to show him where you live on a map and all the canoes you have from NY. Maybe that would motivate him to take some action instead of waiting for something to 'float on by'.

Three. And I have waited for all of them to float on by. All of the ten or so solos. I have never spent $3000 on any boat. With the exception of the DragonFly all were used or blems . Again you know little of what you say as fact..

My first solo yellow canoe was a blem and from Ontario via Connecticut.

The Echo is a fine boat and fun for me when I tried it. I don't need it. I do know Evan has one or more. While it comes up shallow on the specs its got good waveshedding.

Float on by is my motto. I have been waiting a couple of years for a Yellowstone Solo to float on by and that might not ever come.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Can't say anything more about the Next that I didn't on the Pnet thread. We all just will have to wait and see. The weight alone puts me off though.

But that's not what I came here to say...

The assumption that shipping is no problem can only come from one who has never seen the problems associated with shipping. First is the cost. You have to consider it, and it isn't small. To some, a 200-300 dollar shipping bill is a deal-killer. After that, there is the way shipping company employees handle stuff. It is a testament to Kaz and the durability of glass over kevlar that the minion who destroyed the packaging and tried to skewer my Coho only managed to put a little superficial mark on it. When I saw where the fork impaled the package, I nearly had a fit. If it had been more toward the center of the boat, I have no doubt it would have had to go back for immediate repair.

I will never fault someone who prefers to buy locally - or at least in person - and avoid shipping. Sometimes we have to go with what is practical. Good luck on your search, Jimmy.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I'm with YC on the "float on by". That's how I got most of my boats too. My one and only solo canoe (Dagger Sojourn) happened to float by my BIL who was spending some time in it's vicinity near Puget Sound. I spent a whopping $250 on it and waited another two months for him to bring it home. Patience has it's rewards.

 

[yellowcanoe]

When I say "float on by" that doesn't mean I wait for the boat to come to me always. Often it does. I got my Raven new for four hundred dollars at the Swift Dealer in Connecticut. CT is a rotten place to sell downriver tripping boats and this one had lived on a rack for four years. I got my Monarch from a nice "corn ditch " paddler in Illinois. His wife didn't like it. I was on my way to teaching somewhere and had --o golly- rack room Nomad came from Florida where I was doing something else too.

Two boats I helped build as a friend of mine does that for a career. It was a nice way to spend weekends when I was working

I do transport for people via connections on P net and the WCHA and have the option of using those resources for transport for myself but have not so far. I guess I would never want to be in the position of using a common carrier. Folks in the West or in less "canoey" places have it harder than I do.

I can watch for boats in Maine.. we will be going to Newfoundland next year and can transport to Nova Scotia( we will ferry from Portland to Yarmouth) drive to North Sydney and ferry to Argentia or Channel Port aux Basques.

Also the Maine Canoe Symposium is a "mere" 10 hours from Halifax. Its in June. Usually there are a lot of boats and quite a few solos.

 

[Jimmy The Jet]

Memaquay, not to rub it in, but I live in the Annapolis Valley, and yes, the colours are really getting going. We've been here for 3 years now, and love it. Just had my first off the tree honey crisp yesterday!! Going to Foote's or Dempsey's on the weekend to pick. Would love to see the cedar boat- I bet your osprey is beautiful!
I was in to the Trail Shop Saturday. He has a few canoes, but is mainly focused on yaks. He may be bringing in a couple NEXT's, so that's where I'd see them.

Yellowcanoe, I'm of the same opinion. I don't mind waiting for the right boat or the right deal to float by. Never been to Newfoundland myself, at least not yet. Trip is planned for next summer. We'll be going to Port aux Basques. The east side on the Rock is similar in topography to much of Nova Scotia. I really want to see the West - Cornerbrook area, Gros Morne, and the Northern Penninsula. Better get that Portland to Yarmouth trip in soon. Sales are very low, and way below what they had predicted. It's only the first year back, but word is it may close down pretty quick if people don't use it... And, thanks for the offer to ship a canoe!!

Steve, you're on the money regarding shipping. I lived in the NWT for 10 years, and all of my shopping was done over the net or the phone, and everything came on a truck or on Buffalo Air (Ice Pilots). Those boys know how to break stuff!
My friend in Saskatoon ordered a 22 foot tandem yak from Seaward on Vancouver Island this year. They wanted $1500 to ship it to him! He drove and picked it up himself.

Bottom line is, I'm not sold on the NEXT, but will make a decision on it myself. I will try and arrange another trip to St John and check out what he's got, maybe leave with a Wilderness or an Echo... And, my eyes will be on the used market. I actually need two canoes and a kayak, so buying one boat is only the start. But my big MR is getting heavier every year...

 

[Alan Gage]

I do similar to what YC mentions above. When I'm getting ready to go on a trip I start scouting Craigslist to see if there's anything along the way that I might wan to stop and pick up. It's rarely worked out for me but it's fun to look and you get to see different boats than what's normally available in your "home" area.

While there aren't many good canoes available locally I'm lucky to live just 3 hours south of Minneapolis. Nearly boat I've ever bought (probably 20 or more) has included a drive of at least 3 hours. Once I drove all the way to western AZ for a boat. Well, not quite just for the boat. I was thinking of going anyway and when the boat came up it sealed the deal on vacation.

I'd agree with making a habit of watching Craigslist ads and not being too picky, especially if you're not sure what you're looking for. Don't hold out for the perfect boat. Find something for a good price that looks like might suit your needs and give it a go. If something better comes along snap it up and sell the old one. Or keep it!

As for test paddling I don't think I've ever test paddled a boat before buying it. It's hard to convince sellers who are 3+ hours away to hold a boat for you until you can make the trip. So I try to do the negotiations and settle on a price before making the trip with the only stipulation being a right to refuse if I find an unexpected fault upon inspection. Otherwise I tell them they can consider it sold if they'll just hold it a few days. Then you can meet them at their house or any other location without having to find water.

And really, until you've spent considerable time in the seat of different boats I think it would be difficult to tell much on a short test paddle. I think I've only bought one boat that after paddling a couple times realized that it just wasn't for me, a Yellowstone solo. Though now that I've got more experience and better single blade skills I would like to have it back. I sold it the next spring for the same price I paid.

Alan

 

[pblanc]

I'm not opposed to taking a drive when time and money allow. I'm also not opposed to $3000 for the right boat, if another option isn't available. I like the light weight of the high end boats like PBW, but weigh that against the fact the kids will be paddling it sometimes, and it will get damaged - so is it worth the money? I'm not opposed to a good used boat, if it's the right boat. All of these are relevant and add to my canoe-buying future. I don't see what the problem is with asking about the NEXT. It's a small solo boat. I have already said the weight isn't a deal breaker for me, but it does weigh-in (nyuk). If the boat paddles well, I'd rather spend the $1000, than traipse around looking for something else. If it is indeed a piece of crap, then I won't buy it. I didn't know if the NEXT was built from a design that everyone knew, or if it was entirely new. Plus, I didn't know if there were folks on here with inside info that may have paddled it. It isn't, and there aren't. So I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

I appreciate the input from many of you, so thanks. Mr. Wilson, I like to change back and forth between sitting and kneeling. If I had an adjustable seat, or something like the Placid, I would switch through all three for variety and experimentation. Not a huge fan of a double blade, but once in a while it's okay. These days, if I get in a kayak, I usually sit and switch with a single paddle. Just because I can. I am sending you a message, cuz I'd like to see your list of dimensions - very helpful, I bet. Mahsi cho!

Now, I'm going do some searches on this forum and others for info on the Echo.

Judging by what you say here, and in prior posts, I really don't think a pack canoe is what you are looking for, whether it is made by Placid Boatworks or Old Town. While it is true that solo canoes in general can be paddled either sitting or kneeling, some boats are very strongly oriented toward one or the other, and pack canoes are typically designed for a relatively low sitting posture. Just looking at the photos and videos, I doubt very strongly whether you would be able to comfortably kneel in the Next without changing the seat.

Other solo canoes are designed for a seated paddler and when the seat is raised high enough to allow heel clearance when kneeling, these boats may become excessively tender when one tries to sit because of the higher center of gravity. You should try to figure out how high your seat or kneeling thwart will need to be to allow foot clearance. This is a function of foot size and choice of foot wear.

Some boats do quite well for either a seated or kneeling posture and the Swift Osprey is certainly one of them. I haven't paddled the Keewaydin but I gather from posts from those who have that it is quite highly regarded.

Would a drive to any of the Swift Ontario dealers be prohibitive for you? Swift dealers are having inventory clearance now so if you are willing to make the journey you might make some phone calls. You might also consider checking out Millbrook Boats in Richmond New Hampshire. John Kazimierczyk makes some very nice composite boats at an attractive price point. Kaz uses S fiberglass for the exterior layers, and Kevlar for the interior layers. Check out the 15' 4", 44 lb, vacuum bag-constructed Souhegan for $1600 USD:

http://www.millbrookboats.com/tandem.htm

Composite boats, when constructed using all cloth in a robust layup such as Kaz uses, are much tougher than many give them credit for. Most of Kaz's designs are intended for white water use. IMO one cannot make generalizations that fiberglass is stronger than aramid, or vice verse. It all depends on the layup. Fiberglass, especially S fiberglass, is quite strong when subjected to either compressive or tensile stresses and bonds to most resins extremely well. Aramid (e.g, Kevlar) is even stronger in tension but not as strong in compression. It does have a significantly greater strength-to-weight ratio than even S 'glass for tensile stresses. When Kevlar is used for interior layers, where it is most likely to be subjected to tensile stresses, and S fiberglass is used externally where compressive stresses are more likely to occur, the layup is very strong, and the use of aramid can save around 10 lbs or so on the weight of the average solo canoe without compromising strength.

 

[memaquay]

Geeze Jet, you're rubbing it in! I dated a girl from Dempsey Corner, and I simply cannot eat an apple from a grocery store, both were as wholesome and fresh as life could be! Nothing better than a crisp valley Mac right off the branch.

Anyway, if you have some time on your hands, like a couple of hours a week, you could think about building a stripper. Lots of good cedar in NS, you could probably complete the project for under a thousand easily. I built my first four in a 10 x 17 room of my basement.