Of beavers, wolves, and forested wetlands.

[Alan Gage]

Wyoming Ranchers Prepared To "Shoot On Sight" If Colorado Wolves Cross State Line

Now that Colorado has wolves — some of which have a history of killing cattle in Oregon — Wyoming ranchers are banking on Wyoming's “shoot on sight”…

cowboystatedaily.com

Common sense from the people directly affected. The same common sense that motivated virtually every civilization on earth since the Neolithic Era 10,000 years ago to aggressively hunt wolves, often to deliberate extermination.

Is there any evidence that pre-European cultures on this continent ever actively hunted wolves because they felt they were a threat to themselves personally or that they would diminish the food supply? I've never heard of any but I could certainly be wrong.

Alan

 

[Gamma1214]

Is there any evidence that pre-European cultures on this continent ever actively hunted wolves because they felt they were a threat to themselves personally or that they would diminish the food supply? I've never heard of any but I could certainly be wrong.

I'm certainly not an expert but some native peoples have wolves in their origin stories. (ie: wolves turned into humans due to some particular event). To kill a wolf, therefore, would be to kill a family member. Bears were respected and often held in reverence but wolves were practically sacred.

 

[clemency]

Wikipedia has an interesting section on wolf hunting, including the question of Native peoples hunting wolves.

Wolf hunting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gamma1214]

interesting... according to that, it was more common than I had always supposed... this site is certainly educational at times.

 

[Alan Gage]

Wikipedia has an interesting section on wolf hunting, including the question of Native peoples hunting wolves.

Wolf hunting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The amount of people killed by wolves in India was astounding!

In 1876, in the North-West Provinces and Bihar State of British India, 2,825 wolves were killed in response to 721 fatal attacks on humans.[28] Two years later, 2,600 wolves were killed in response to attacks leaving 624 humans dead.[29]

Alan

 

[Odyssey]

I think it all comes down to our ever controling humanistic land use policies from the paleolithic to the present. We steer, subjugate, and steward what we can, either for an economic or ecologic benefit. They seldom agree. Piney summarizes it very well when he sweeps it all into neatly fitting moralizing boxes. I agree. Our attitudes and cultures change over time, and so do our policies. We'll always be trying to figure this world out. Such is the prize of man being the measure of all things.

 

[Black_Fly]

Why would anyone want wolves around, or at least around human habitations? I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah, I know, the entire food chain would collapse if we eliminated wolves or cockroaches or rats. Well, as far as I know, 99.9% of all species that have ever been alive have gone extinct, and the food chain, perhaps changed, seems to have evolved and survived just fine.

Maybe it’s the ethics. Are we here to reengineer the planet to human taste, which has consequences we usually don’t realize until it’s too late? Doesn’t populating the earth so densely that “inconvenient” species are eradicated or live in shrinking limited areas run afoul of ethical ideas? Or, are ethics only tied to human propagation? Aldo would disagree.

 

[Black_Fly]

The amount of people killed by wolves in India was astounding!



Alan

Who cares? India is a wasteland of humans living on top of their own offal. Not the model I want for a legacy to my grandchildren. Wilderness is where the Earth regenerates systems that every species needs. Wolves belong in wild lands and are an important part of that biome. We need to stop making things easy for humans at the expense of natural landscapes. I say move livestock off public lands and protect remnant species.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Is there any evidence that pre-European cultures on this continent ever actively hunted wolves because they felt they were a threat to themselves personally or that they would diminish the food supply?

The Wikipedia article already referred to says that Indians often killed wolves for various reasons. But keep in mind that Pre-Columbian Indians weren't ranchers, farmers or raisers of livestock herds. They didn't have much livestock to herd and did not domesticate animals. Most livestock animals were imported from Europe.

More on the Colorado wolf kerfuffle, in which a 50.91% majority, most likely living in cities and sipping lattes on their couches, narrowly outvoted the people who have to live with the risks and consequences:

What’s behind the resistance to wolves in Colorado?

Last month, when the first group of wolves were reintroduced to media fanfare in the state of Colorado, following a slim statewide affirmative vote (50.91%) in 2020, Bonnie Brown was dismayed. The Colorado Wool Growers...

www.postindependent.com

 

[Black_Fly]

I’ve known my share of cattlemen. Have rancher friends. The difference is education, and economics, not lattes. I do like lattes, however.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

More on the Colorado wolf kerfuffle, in which a 50.91% majority, most likely living in cities and sipping lattes on their couches, narrowly outvoted the people who have to live with the risks and consequences:

What’s behind the resistance to wolves in Colorado?

Last month, when the first group of wolves were reintroduced to media fanfare in the state of Colorado, following a slim statewide affirmative vote (50.91%) in 2020, Bonnie Brown was dismayed. The Colorado Wool Growers...

www.postindependent.com

"Colorado Parks and Wildlife captured the two adult wolves and four pups that make up the Copper Creek pack, but the adult male died after its capture, the agency confirmed in a news release Monday afternoon.

"The agency, which in late August announced plans to remove the pack due to repeated livestock killings in the area, said . . . ."

Colorado Parks and Wildlife captures Copper Creek wolf pack, announces male's death

Colorado Parks and Wildlife captured the two adult wolves and four pups that make up the Copper Creek pack but said the adult male died after capture.

www.coloradoan.com

 

[ppine]

People in the East and Midwest seem to have a much different view of wild lands and space than people living in the West. I can see wild horses from my kitchen window. We have mule deer, antelope, mountain lions, bears, golden eagles and owls in the neighborhood. I have a backyard literally of one million acres of public land. When I camp in the back yard I can hear typically two, sometimes three packs of coyotes.

We have plenty of room for apex predators like wolves. They are smart and very adaptable. The PCT is about 40 minutes from my house. Wolves are highly mobile and quick to roam and fill up new habitats. But they are efficient killers which makes their proximity to humans highly problematic.

The Endangered Species Act is a powerful piece of legislation, but it was never intended to protect wildlife species in perpetuity. Species like grizz which has met the USFWS de-listing criteria for 12 straight years keeps getting thrown out of court. As a society we need to establish some ground rules to allow ranchers and farmers some leeway in controlling predators doing direct damage to their livelihoods. The popular doctrine practiced by some in the West, is the SSS method. Shoot, Shovel and Shut up. Nobody wants to be arrested for a Federal crime for protecting their livestock at night with a rifle.

My grandfather shot wolves for bounty around 1910 in Montana. I have had friends living in Wyoming that tell similar stories. There is a place for wolves on all of the public land here in the West. We need to stop making criminals out of people that protect their livestock.

 

[ppine]

Is there any evidence that pre-European cultures on this continent ever actively hunted wolves because they felt they were a threat to themselves personally or that they would diminish the food supply? I've never heard of any but I could certainly be wrong.

Alan

It would be best to ask some tribal elders. Three hundred different tribes had much different outlooks.

 

[yknpdlr]

From my home on the edge of the western Adirondacks (connected to 6 million wildland acres, half of it is freely open to the public), it is dairy farmland country with wilderness just a few paddling miles away on the river. I regularly hear one or two packs of coyotes from my bedroom window at night. I have an open view of pitch black dark skies without street or city lights. Deer are a constant nuisance in my backyard, eating sapling buds and trashing my fenced in vegetable garden. Turkeys are constantly along the roadside, and are in fact much more road and vehicle aware than the stupid deer are. I have seen bears recently twice run in front of me near home. My lakeside camp is another world a half hour away from home, a small no-motors allowed stocked trout lake surrounded by deep wooded forest with all the same wildlife, plus beavers and otters and loon families. I can't drive a trip between home to camp without every time having to watch out for deer crossing, being careful of a sudden unexpected jump on the road in front of me, and a flock of turkeys that actually know how to obey the rules of how to cross a road.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

People in the East and Midwest seem to have a much different view of wild lands and space than people living in the West. I can see wild horses from my kitchen window. We have mule deer, antelope, mountain lions, bears, golden eagles and owls in the neighborhood. I have a backyard literally of one million acres of public land. When I camp in the back yard I can hear typically two, sometimes three packs of coyotes.

We have plenty of room for apex predators like wolves. They are smart and very adaptable. The PCT is about 40 minutes from my house. Wolves are highly mobile and quick to roam and fill up new habitats. But they are efficient killers which makes their proximity to humans highly problematic.

The Endangered Species Act is a powerful piece of legislation, but it was never intended to protect wildlife species in perpetuity. Species like grizz which has met the USFWS de-listing criteria for 12 straight years keeps getting thrown out of court. As a society we need to establish some ground rules to allow ranchers and farmers some leeway in controlling predators doing direct damage to their livelihoods. The popular doctrine practiced by some in the West, is the SSS method. Shoot, Shovel and Shut up. Nobody wants to be arrested for a Federal crime for protecting their livestock at night with a rifle.

My grandfather shot wolves for bounty around 1910 in Montana. I have had friends living in Wyoming that tell similar stories. There is a place for wolves on all of the public land here in the West. We need to stop making criminals out of people that protect their livestock.

^This.

I've been through all of this controversy already. The FWS introduced wolves in the central Idaho wilderness, I think, even before Yellowstone. They did it right where and right after I had been on a fly-in wilderness hunt the previous fall.

I've always been torn about this. I don't like the idea of perpetual protection of apex predators and I don't like how they impact ranching and how the new wolves changed sport hunting. But I also can tell you that in the Frank Church Wilderness before wolf introduction, the ungulate population was approaching unhealthily high levels and human hunting pressure falling. It was pretty obvious to me at the time. You can argue that the reduced human activity was/is a result of government regulation/interference combined with economic pressure - and you'd be right. But given the public desire for that landscape, there was a pretty good argument for bringing in the wolves.

My only beef (well, besides the fact that the elk herd was unaccustomed to wolf predation and has suffered beyond reason) was that humans would be subject to intense legal pressure to abstain from effective self protection or protection of livestock or companion animals.

I can also tell you though that now that wolf population here has been established to viable levels, the overprotection has been moderated. A defensive killing of a wolf is still a huge legal bother for the defender, but it's survivable - as is now the case with bears. Wolf packs are being managed to size and even...um....removed in some cases (causing great protestations from the wolf fanatics). We even have legal regulated wolf hunting.

As it now stands, I'm pretty comfortable with the way things are being managed here. Yeah, there is an element of added danger from wolves, bears, lions, and moose FTM, compared to when I was young. But we are also allowed to have and use effective defensive (even deadly) tools. I think that's a balanced approach to wildlife management and living close to wild places.

 

[Boreal Birch]

“not lattes, I like lattes, however.”

All hat, no cattle!

 

[Alan Gage]

This has been an interesting thread and I've learned quite a bit from the opinions that have been expressed. But it is off topic and I think everyone has had their say so I'm going to lock this thread.

Alan