Need some royalex advice

[sonofsquink]

Hey guys, first time poster here. After two years of diligently monitoring Facebook and Craigslist I finally snagged an Old Town Pack (12 foot, 33lbs.) for $400. The previous owner had put some sort of "buoyancy" device on the sides with a pretty heavy adhesive and I was wondering if anyone had any words of advice before I try to remove it. I email Old Town and they suggested light sanding then hitting it with 303 spray. Any ideas of what grit I should start at or what kind of sander to use (random orbital, belt, oscillating)? I've never worked with royalex so I'm a little nervous to start. Thanks in advance

 

[pblanc]

Do you have any idea what adhesive was used? I might be inclined to apply some mineral spirits to a few of the thicker areas of residue and see if it softens them up.

It is possible to wet sand Royalex. I have done it to remove heavy, ugly oxidation. I would be inclined to start with either 180 or 220 grit to see if that is effective using the finest grit that works. This will leave sanding marks in the outer vinyl layer which can be partially removed by wet sanding with progressively finer grades. It is possible that you could go through the outer vinyl layer exposing the outer solid stratum of ABS which would then require you to cover those areas with paint.

 

[sonofsquink]

I have no idea what sort of adhesive was used, almost seems like construction stuff. I was able to knock a couple of the thicker chunks off using an old joint knife and some light tapping so I wonder if some mineral spirits or maybe even a little heat could soften them up a little more? If it does end up needing to be painted, do you need to apply any sort of epoxy afterwards to protect the ABS? Appreciate the advice, like I said I'm very new to royalex

 

[pblanc]

Anything opaque will protect the ABS from UV degradation so paint will suffice. You might be able to chip and shave some of the residue off using a putty knife or a wood chisel. Keep the angle to the hull surface very narrow (acute) and try not to gouge or shave off the outer vinyl too badly. If worst comes to worst, you could just remove the residue by whatever means necessary accepting the possibility that you may denude a strip of the upper hull of the outer vinyl layer partially or completely but if you sanded that area as smooth as possible and then painted a neatly masked strip beneath the outwale it would surely look better than it does now. And a painted surface that high up above the water line would not be very prone to getting scratched off.

You could certainly try heat judiciously but be cautious. Too much heat will deform the foam core in the center of the Royalex sandwich.

 

[sonofsquink]

I did very cautiously try a little heat, and while it did soften up the material a little, I don't think it justifies the risk. I did a little more research and several recommended using M-1 Tough Job Remover since it's water-based and wouldn't harm the royalex. I think maybe the plan of action is to keep chipping away at the larger chunks with the dull joint knife, wet sand almost all the way through, then try a little of the M-1 to loosen up the remainder. I think you're right though, I think I do just need to accept that there might be some damage to the upper hull if I want the aesthetics to improve at all. Thanks again for the help.

 

[pblanc]

I have used mineral spirits to loosen and remove contact cement residue left behind on the interior of Royalex hulls after removing things like foam kneeling pads and pedestals on a number of canoes and it hasn't damaged the Royalex. Granted that was on the inside, not the outside, but it is still vinyl.

Acetone or MEK definitely will damage (melt) Royalex if it remains in contact with the surface more than momentarily. I also have used denatured alcohol without problems.

 

[Guest]

I have no idea what sort of adhesive was used, almost seems like construction stuff. I was able to knock a couple of the thicker chunks off using an old joint knife and some light tapping so I wonder if some mineral spirits or maybe even a little heat could soften them up a little more?

The ample globby application, color and “thick chunks” leads me to believe you are correct and it is some caulk tube construction adhesive.

I have some experience with that stuff inside an old woven roving glass hull. Some idiot had attempted to “glue” a giant slab of minicel inside the hull using Hard as Nails construction adhesive. It didn’t hold the minicel in place worth a dang, left sharp residue globs behind. It really was hard as nails and dang near impossible to get off.

Oh, wait, that idiot was me. It was a long time ago.

Solvents would barely make a dent in that construction adhesive, and I had to use a sander on it. It took some serious belt sanding effort to get (most) of it off, but there was still nasty residue remaining, and I contact cemented a layer of minicel exercise flooring over it to cover the ugly.

If it does end up needing to be painted, do you need to apply any sort of epoxy afterwards to protect the ABS? Appreciate the advice, like I said I'm very new to royalex

If you can get it smooth enough that a paint coat won’t look bumpy ugly you could give painting a try.

Or, maybe contact cement new sponsons below the outwale. Or maybe non-sponsons; a strip of exercise flooring (comes in different colors) or other thin linear material glued there below the gunwales might essentially look like an accent stripe.

Let us know if you manage to get it off, and how.

 

[Guest]

Any ideas of what grit I should start at or what kind of sander to use (random orbital, belt, oscillating)?

To answer the actual question I’d start with a less aggressive grit, maybe 150 or 220. I think the sanding hazard with any grit will be cutting into the vinyl skin. If any of the globby adhesive remains a paint job over top will look like hell, and same if the vinyl skin is torn and tattered.

As to what kind of sander, if that is construction adhesive my experience was that a belt sander worked best, my RO and pad sanders did very little.

I don’t know how far down below the gunwales the adhesive crud from the old (I presume) sponsons reaches. If the previous owner made DIY sponsons from something like a split pool noodle the power sanders in my shop are all too wide (3” to 5”). If you do worth-a-try use a power sander I’d run a couple layers of duct tape as a semi-protective barrier just below the adhesive smutch, and another protective layer along the vinyl outwale.

The adhesive residue from the duct tape will come off with alcohol or mineral spirits. Like Pblanc mentioned I would stay away from using acetone or MEK, especially if the vinyl skin is torn or sanded through; harsh solvents will dissolve the ABS underlayers.

Applying too much heat to soften the adhesive crud and scrape it off can easily damage the vinyl skin. I tore some vinyl skin off a canoe using a heat gun and putty knife trying to remove a decal.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but even sanded as cautiously as possible, without tearing up the vinyl Royalex skin, I think some adhesive will still be ugly apparent, and painting over the remaining crud will turn out less than attractive.

I’m back to thinking sand as much of the crud off as possible without cutting into the vinyl skin and run a cover strip of something thin under outwales to hide the ugly.

A stripe made of 2” wide black Gorilla tape would be easy and inexpensive, and easy to replace/recover if eventually necessary. Black Gorilla tape would tie in nicely with the black gunwales, and be more scrape and scratch resistant than a layer of paint.

Canoe Tripper’s, other ideas for some other narrow cover stripe?

 

[pblanc]

To answer the actual question I’d start with a less aggressive grit, maybe 150 or 220. I think the sanding hazard with any grit will be cutting into the vinyl skin. If any of the globby adhesive remains a paint job over top will look like hell, and same if the vinyl skin is torn and tattered.

As to what kind of sander, if that is construction adhesive my experience was that a belt sander worked best, my RO and pad sanders did very little.

I don’t know how far down below the gunwales the adhesive crud from the old (I presume) sponsons reaches. If the previous owner made DIY sponsons from something like a split pool noodle the power sanders in my shop are all too wide (3” to 5”). If you do worth-a-try use a power sander I’d run a couple layers of duct tape as a semi-protective barrier just below the adhesive smutch, and another protective layer along the vinyl outwale.

The adhesive residue from the duct tape will come off with alcohol or mineral spirits. Like Pblanc mentioned I would stay away from using acetone or MEK, especially if the vinyl skin is torn or sanded through; harsh solvents will dissolve the ABS underlayers.

Applying too much heat to soften the adhesive crud and scrape it off can easily damage the vinyl skin. I tore some vinyl skin off a canoe using a heat gun and putty knife trying to remove a decal.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but even sanded as cautiously as possible, without tearing up the vinyl Royalex skin, I think some adhesive will still be ugly apparent, and painting over the remaining crud will turn out less than attractive.

I’m back to thinking sand as much of the crud off as possible without cutting into the vinyl skin and run a cover strip of something thin under outwales to hide the ugly.

A stripe made of 2” wide black Gorilla tape would be easy and inexpensive, and easy to replace/recover if eventually necessary. Black Gorilla tape would tie in nicely with the black gunwales, and be more scrape and scratch resistant than a layer of paint.

Canoe Tripper’s, other ideas for some other narrow cover stripe?

If removing the residue requires removing all or part of the outer vinyl skin of the Royalex, I would sand down any remaining vinyl that could not be easily removed, feather the edges of such, and lay down a strip of relatively light 4 ounce/square yard fiberglass cloth bonded on with West System G Flex epoxy with graphite powder mixed in. This could be made to look like a "racing stripe" with a point at each end. It would be very durable and would be far stronger than the vinyl removed.

 

[DaveO]

As usual, Mr. blanc and Mr. McCrea are spot on.

The only thing I would add is that they aren't making royalex anymore, and the Pack is a cult classic, out of production AFAIK. So, I would say, embrace your Pack's character. I like unique aspects on a canoe, as theft deterrence if nothing else. Enjoy it!

 

[Guest]

If removing the residue requires removing all or part of the outer vinyl skin of the Royalex, I would sand down any remaining vinyl that could not be easily removed, feather the edges of such, and lay down a strip of relatively light 4 ounce/square yard fiberglass cloth bonded on with West System G Flex epoxy with graphite powder mixed in. This could be made to look like a "racing stripe" with a point at each end. It would be very durable and would be far stronger than the vinyl removed.

If you opt for that solution using fiberglass tape (not an adhesive backed tape, just rolls of E-glass with a seamed selvage edge) would be a lot easier than cutting a hull length strip of fiberglass cloth.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...ct-detail/2074

 

[Paddlinhal]

You might try using a block plane with a severely shallow cut. A freshly sharpened block plane.

 

[sonofsquink]

Lots of good feedback here, seriously, thanks you guys. I'm in the middle of a couple projects but I just got out in the garage to run a quick test. I put some 80 grit on an oscillating sander and liberally spray water throughout the process. It worked it into an almost paste-like substance, which I think is a great sign. I think I might continue working it down almost all the way and then hit it with some solvent, maybe that will loosen the remainder up enough that I can hit it with a plastic scraper. I'll attached a picture of the process I've used versus what it looks like elsewhere.

 

[sonofsquink]

As usual, Mr. blanc and Mr. McCrea are spot on.

The only thing I would add is that they aren't making royalex anymore, and the Pack is a cult classic, out of production AFAIK. So, I would say, embrace your Pack's character. I like unique aspects on a canoe, as theft deterrence if nothing else. Enjoy it!

Hahaha, spot on Dave

 

[bark-eater]

I've had good luck cleaning up glue on royalex with a sharp hand scraper filed to a bit of a curve and the corners relieved so they dont dig in. I've used goo gone and mineral spirits on royalex. Acetone will melt the outer layer, but a quick wipe seems to smooth sand paper scratches with out causing damage.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

It looks like a Jackson Pollock painting, which sell for millions to museums and art collectors.

 

[sonofsquink]

The good news is she floated just fine. I think if I want to continue taking this 70lbs idiot with me I might have to drop the seat a bit to lower the center of gravity. We have a few rainy days coming up this week so I might just tape off a few sections of the adhesive and run a few experiments based on all these suggestions.