Looking for opinions on a canoe

[yellowcanoe]

Never heard of Bear Creek canoes. Never seen one either. Sebago is seven miles from me. We have the Maine Canoe Symposium near by and they have never been there either. Seems like the craft are designed for fishing and pottering.

That I haven't seen one is odd as my town is on Sebago Lake.

 

[Guest]

I don't want to hijack here, but is there such a thing as a temporary foot brace instal? Something that can be removed when a tandem returns to double duty? I'm wondering if this, as well as a seat adjustment might help out schiff. Not trying to spoil a shopping trip schiff, I'm just asking & learning here.

If you don’t want to go the full DIY route the older style Wenonah foot braces, the ones that simply used L brackets with spaced holes and wing nuts through the foot bar would work.

(Fugly picture, best I can find)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Wenonah+foot+brace&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=dhuQn6Xu_DK-WM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQ6P-nmqUI3xGL9vpr00tRIJ8KhLBFmQz5XO5JW0tr7KMjvuHIwqQ%253B1403%253B1052%253Bdwz5r7Zqa_VSPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.bwca.com%25252Findex.cfm%25253Ffuseaction%2525253Dforum.thread%25252526threadId%2525253D109463%25252526forumID%2525253D15%25252526confID%2525253D1&sa=X&ei=fiizUrzpPNWxsQS6w4HgBQ&ved=0CFoQ9QEwAw&biw=1280&bih=898#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=dhuQn6Xu_DK-WM%3A%3Bdwz5r7Zqa_VSPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fphotos.bwca.com%252Fb%252FBLACKSTICK-051008-170819.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.bwca.com%252Findex.cfm%253Ffuseaction%253Dforum.thread%2526threadId%253D109463%2526forumID%253D15%2526confID%253D1%3B1403%3B1052

Those can also be DIYed with a piece of angle aluminum and sleeved bar.

The newer Wenonah slider is more easily adjustable in fine increments (which makes a notable comfort difference between barefoot and booted), and could be adapted so that the foot bar slid fully out from the receiver channel.

http://www.rutabaga.com/wenonah-canoe-tandem-footbraces
A well positioned and comfortable foot brace is a wonderful thing.

 

[oldie moldy]

Hi Schiff, Maybe I missed it, but was their a reason you don't kneel? If you're OK with the position why don't you give it a try? Frankly, after kneeling I feel a little bit uneasy trying to paddle from the seated position. Sure I can do it, but compared to the almost locked in security of the kneeling position I don't care for the seat unless I'm just taking a break and stretching my legs.
Now it's true, most of us will have pad(s) for the old knee bones and the edge of the seat isn't all that kind to the hinder parts but these things can worked on and wow, what a more easier paddling position.

Best Wishes,

Rob

 

[schiff]

There is no reason other than I didn't know that it was a viable option. I am not sure how I will like fishing from that position, but will find out.
The only reason I ever get in any boat is to fish. I take long all day trips on the rivers and lakes sometimes, but usually 1/2 day trips.
I thought about it and I really don't do a lot of paddling. More sitting and fishing and drifting. I mostly paddle to a destination or to jump from spot to spot.
Kneeling doesn't sound very relaxing, but I won't know till I try it.

 

[Guest]

There is no reason other than I didn't know that it was a viable option. I am not sure how I will like fishing from that position, but will find out.
The only reason I ever get in any boat is to fish. I take long all day trips on the rivers and lakes sometimes, but usually 1/2 day trips.
I thought about it and I really don't do a lot of paddling. More sitting and fishing and drifting. I mostly paddle to a destination or to jump from spot to spot.
Kneeling doesn't sound very relaxing, but I won't know till I try it.

Schiff,

Some people are comfortable kneeling for long periods of time and prefer that posture. Some of that comfort comes from having improved boat control and an increased feeling of stability.

Some of it comes from having a boat outfitted for kneeling comfort – canted seat at the right height, knee pads, ankle blocks, etc. You won’t know ‘til you’ve tried, and even then it may take a while for your body to become acclimated to the kneeling posture and position.

But the same comfort outfitting applies equally to paddling from a seated position. That seated position is far more familiar and most of us sit manage to sit comfortably for long periods of time; at a desk, in a car, in an easy chair at home.

But most of us don’t chose a wooden stool with no backrest when we plunk down with a good book, or chose to drive long distances in a vehicle with hard, poorly bolstered seats.

Whatever boat you end up with, in whatever paddling position, outfitting that hull to be comfortable for your personal physiology and preferences makes a huge difference.

I often spend long days in the boat and to that end all of my boats are outfitted with foot braces or pedals, back bands and minicel paddling for my knees and heels. If you put me in the sweetest paddling hull imaginable without that comfort outfitting I would be unhappy in minutes.

If I am going to spend five, six, eight hours a day in a boat I want it to be the most comfortable seat in the house. If my knees hurt, or my back aches or my butt goes numb something needs fixing.

Few canoes come straight from the factory already outfitted for every paddler’s comfort preferences, and most paddlers have their own definition of what that entails.

Among Jeep aficionados there is a saying “You don’t buy a Jeep, you build a Jeep” – you add a brush guard, roll cage, winch, bigger tires, etc. I’m not a Jeep fan, but I do like canoes and kayaks, and believe that the same principle applies.

It’s amazing what can be achieved with something as simple a can of contact cement and some minicel foam.

 

[schiff]

Mike, that was a great summary of what I really need to consider going forward. Thanks...very good food for thought.

 

[Guest]

If a solo seat is set up right,you can switch to a multitude of positions. Although kneeling is probibly best,I can't continously kneel for more than 1/2 hr or so. Switching around helps me from having sore parts or cramps. I have installed Swift solo seats in most of my solos.The sloped front allows comfortable kneeling with the seat installed with a slight slant allowing comfortable sitting also.
Turtle

 

[Guest]

Seat height, angle, adjustment and rambling

Seat height, angle, adjustment and rambling

OEM canoe seats come in a variety of styles, hangers and configurations. Some are already canted to better facilitate kneeling, some are not. And some are easier to adjust height or cant angle wise.

Mohawk canoes (likely going out of business with the demise of Royalex) use an aluminum L seat hanger bracket with plastic spacers, so adjusting the height or angle of a Mohawk seat is as simple as removing the nut and repositioning the plastic spacers above or below the hanger bracket or seat frame.

http://mohawkcanoes.com/products/seats-seat-backs/#/adjustment-kit/1

Wenonah uses a system on some of their solo canoes that is even easier to adjust:

http://www.wenonah.com/Seating.aspx

That system allows the paddler to adjust the seat between different heights and angles without removing any hardware.

The Wenonah system is probably best for folks who want to more radically switch the seat between different seat heights and angles. I have one in a Wenonah Wilderness and haven’t moved it since I put it in the most-comfortable-for-me slots (unless it jiggles free on its own while roof racked).

To that end I’d rather have a fixed seat held firmly in my preferred position, even if I have to alter or replace the seat drops. “Firmly” - I like full-truss wood drops; it’s like having another giant thwart, which is especially beneficial for a heavyweight paddler.

One of the nicest fixed seats is the Conk seat available from Hemlock canoe. That design uses a laminated and contoured front seat edge in combination with a level rear frame. I can somehow envision Conk doing a Jack Benny head slap when he envisioned the obvious advantages of that design. And I can also see him taking the time to puzzle out the assembly and build process.

https://picasaweb.google.com/114267878012874538920/ConkCustomContourCanoeSeat

They are more expensive than a typical wood frame seat, but the comfort and functionality is enough that I’m considering replacing the Ed’s wide-contour seat in my go-to canoe with a Conk seat. My arse deserves the best, and I’ll repurpose the Ed’s seat in some rebuild.

Speaking of which, Ed’s Canoe is a family-run business with a deservedly fine reputation for providing hardware and brightwork – seats, drops, thwarts, yokes – at very reasonable prices. Reasonable enough that I have a 5 year old stash of unfinished DIY ash seats, thwarts, yokes and truss drops in the shop, already cut and routered, and it just never seems worth my time and effort to sand and varnish them.

http://www.edscanoe.com/

Lastly, and most fortuitously, you are only 100 miles from Blue Mountain Outfitters.

http://www.bluemountainoutfitters.net/

Whether you buy a used boat or want to shop for a new one it would be well worth your while to make a road trip to Marysville. Soon - mid-winter, mid-week, mid-morning quiet time is ideal. Be prepared to stay a while.

Tell them exactly what you said in your original post. Hell, print it out and hand it to them. You’ve well defined what you are looking for (unlike the impossible “I’m looking for a canoe for my family of 5 that I can also use for solo tripping in class III. With my dogs”).

Talking first hand and in person to knowledgeable folks who know their stuff is precious.

 

[schiff]

Thanks Gavia, but now I have to go and Google "Tibias" to make sure I remember what parts we are talking about.
All good. Now that the days are getting longer, it won't be long before I can get out on the water again to try this kneeling position.
I saw a NU-Canoe boat with a raised seat...a cross between a Yak and a Canoe. It is plastic and heavy though. There is just something about a canoe that draws me in. Obviously, most people here feel that also.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Kneelers should use padding. Tibia is the shinbone and the top does take some pressure. It takes time to kneel in the boat comfortably for a period. Also if you have butt support about nine inches off the floor that is a huge help.

I hear a lot that people can't kneel. They try it once and don't like it. Usually the butt support is too low and they don't take the time to work up to three hours. I start at 20 minutes a time in the spring and work up to several hours..usually two is the limit before getting out. And I do enjoy portaging to stretch my legs.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Some of the above I agree with. Here is what I don't agree with. I am a long distance tripper and also like to kneel ala FreeStyle. I eschew any knee pads that go around your knees. I have found that floor workshop matting works as a temporary situation (till you are ready to glue them in. ) they are minicell just like the kneeling pads sold in canoe shops, but two by two foot sections that puzzle lock together. You can trim them to fit under the gunwale so the mat does not slide.

Look at the way your body twists when you capsize. You probably won't be able to kneel in boots anyway with any comfort so the ankle will be flexible. Your foot twists sideways. The folks that have entrapment issues are the ones with fixed ankles either from surgical fusion or from rigid footwear. Take your boat out and capsize it and pay attention to how your body moves.

Once tripping I always glue paddling to the hull. It saves one more thing to carry.

I use Eds Cane Bucket seat for most of my kneeling tripping boats. Its very comfortable for sitting and also kneeling in a dedicated solo boat. I tried the Contour seat too. Didn't like it.

 

[Guest]

All good advice here. One more thing. When most new paddlers hear kneeling,they thing of having all their weight on their knees. In a properly set up seat,you can,with a slight shift of your butt,put a lot to almost no weight on your knees. Different upper leg length requires different setups. When you need maximum control knee weight is great,but I can't do it to long. Like I said previously,moving from position to other position is a big advantage to this seat setup.
Turtle

 

[memaquay]

Or just to stir the pot, ignore all the kneeling advice. I only kneel when running whitewater, and then only when it is serious. Or if a boat is tender and it doesn't have a load in it, I will kneel. That's it. I probably put around 1000 k a summer on my various canoes, and seldom kneel. I don't flex, I come in at the bottom five percent on flex tests. I'm quite comfortable sitting in my flat home made seats for 8 to 10 hours a day. I move around in a variety of positions, and its all good.

 

[memaquay]

I'm not disputing the effectiveness of kneeling, I'm just saying that you can still have a long and productive canoe life without it. The OP is still trying to figure his way out, if he takes to kneeling, that's great, but I just want him to know that if he doesn't take to kneeling, it's all good too.

 

[oldie moldy]

And so you see Schiff, there is 100% agreement amongst the truly professional paddlers!!!
Now, everyone here knows more than me, (I've got to admit it quick before somebody else points it out!), but I'd encourage you to try various ideas, adjust and change them to suit you. Just don't spend a lot of money or glue in anything until you're sure it's what you want. Have fun fiddling and see if you can't find something that works well for you, and let us know how it's going!

Best Wishes,

Rob

 

[Mihun09]

I make my own contoured seats with the tapered front, although I make the seat area larger/wider and have them canted forward. I kneel and sit, depending on how I'm feeling, but generally am more comfortable kneeling, but I'm not gluing padding onto the ribs of my Chestnut, although the ribs do help to stabilize my knees. I have the minicell pads, about a foot square, I toss in the bottom which I can move around as needed.

 

[red langford]

I am a kneeler. Kneel all day, but boy do my ankles and knees get sore. But that sore is better than the sore of my back. I made some modifications to my canoe to ease the pain.

Firstly, when solo I use the kneeling thwart. Most kneeling thwarts are designed either straight or with a contour in the middle, the Alchemist canoes I saw 8 years ago had a dual contour that seemed more suitable for Canadian style paddling. That is to say the contours were offset to coincide with the fact then when you are paddling like this you are one side or the other and not in the middle. My kneeling thwart is is wrapped in blue foamy material now to ease the pain on the arse.

There is closed cell foam pads for the knees to rest on and go up the side quite a way so no matter how far over the boat is heeled you are on the foam. For the ankles I (and by I, I mean somebody else did it for me, namely the guy from Alchemist canoes) installed foam blocks that provide support for the ankles so they are not lying flat.

My back simply cannot take it any other way and after while you begin to just normalize the pain.

But it is important that you get out there and try different ways and find out what works best for you.

 

[Bob B.]

Red Langford,

You are preaching to the choir sir! I think you stated it best when you said," .... boy do my ankles and knees get sore. But that sore is better than the sore of my back." I hear ya brother, loud and clear. I agree! I am a kneeler as well. So many times I have pulled up to a portage or campsite and have had numb ankles/lower legs. It seems to be a small price to pay for such intense solo tripping. I paddle a tandem solo and find this to be the only way to travel ( for me ), so I will deal with knee pain and ankle numbness.

My longest solo was 32 days in country. I developed a knee problem as I was a racing a forest fire in WCPP. I spent 2 days ( 9 hours each) trying to get ahead the fire. My knees have reminded me they do not like being in a boat for that many consecutive hours. I have since resorted to wearing knee pads. The pads have helped to a great degree. Also, they are handy for kneeling on rock when starting a cooking fire.

Bob.

 

[Guest]

Hey Red, I installed the bent solo thwart from Alchemist. Yes, it has a double bend, so I expect to be able to paddle comfortably with my boat heeled. I haven't paddled it yet, so I'll let you know how it goes this spring. Till then, I either sat and suffered sitting on my feet (Indian style, for brief quiet solos), or when tandem, braced my backside against my seat (for rough waters). The guy from Paddleshack said I should be able to sit on it if need be, to stretch my legs from time to time. I'm not sure about the strength of this thwart, so I doubt if I'll try that. Has anyone tried to sit on their thwart periodically? Are they strong enough? I'm looking forward to giving this new thwart a try, with some added mini-cell padding for comfort. Great advice here, and I like the look of that Edscanoe site.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Oboy ... a debate with YC!

The Cane Bucket is the worst seat I can imagine next to a tractor seat. That's because I often shift to the side so I can lean the boat. Sometimes I paddle with my hip against the gunwale. A seat with a longer cane section is ideal for that, since the regular ones tend to leave my onside butt cheek unsupported.

I've dumped with my baseball knee pads on with no problem. I've done several trips with Gore-Tex snake boots (similar to this) with no problem. I've used loose kneeling pads and find them a nuisance. And I've used glued-in kneeling pads and found them even more of a nuisance because they don't cover the middle of the boat, which is where one of my knees is usually placed.

I'm not saying YC is wrong - far from it! Just saying there's more to the picture than any one person's opinion (although, of course, mine counts for more).

Comment to memaquay: Sitting closes the hips and rounds the lower back, meaning the lower back and abdominal muscles work overtime to keep you upright. Kneeling opens the hips, keeps the back's natural curvature, and enables the strong muscles - glutes and quads - to maintain posture. Even dropping one knee is better for the back than sitting.

How wide is your boat? Mine are 24-26. We might be playing in different fruit bins. For kneeling I sometimes do put both knees in one bilge if I want to heel the boat to the rail..as in mangrove tunnels.. The bucket seat does not interfere at all.. My butt is just resting against it and I am straight from shoulders to knees..all the weight is on my knees but I am not slouched over. Coming back to upright the contour seat again just supports the butt lightly but I do allow more weight on the butt.

If you are talking about a 36 inch wide paddling station..ye who steer from the back of the boat I cant help much. I prefer a little Budda Bench that can be moved around and keeps the pressure off the ankles. It gives butt support. The only issue is that with bending getting less bendy as age progresses the stem has to be longer.

We have had a food fight before here. http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1211323

This is one style of prayer bench that can be used for canoes with appropriate mods..use a pad.. Pool noodles help for ankles

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/prayer-bench

Mine is a top shelf, with a stair baluster for a center stem and a bottom shelf a little smaller than the top. The stem goes between your feet.

Mihun.. for ribbed canoes I havent found anything better than Dan Cookes pads at Cooke Custom Sewing. They do not wear through. (When your knees are on ribs there are some severe pressure points). I have had several thousand hours of my Cooke Pad in ribbed boats and there really is no wear. The pad is closed cell with the cushioning of open cell.