ISO niche day-boat suggestions

[Glenn MacGrady]

Easily straddled. Can be less than 30 pounds. Very stable. Easy to self-rescue. Blazing fast. Even faster with a double paddle. Has an understern rudder, the size of which can be changed in a minute, which allows easy, on course paddling no matter the wind direction. A sail mount can be attached. Can't carry a 30 gallon ice chest. But 8" screw hatches open into bow and stern hulls, which can hold gear, beer, ice, tobacco, a python carcass. Easily carried on shoulder with small foam pad. Ama and iakos detatch for easy cartopping on cheap foam cradles. Guaranteed to attract looks.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Inexpensive to build. Light, and you can build it to your size requirements.

https://www.capefalconkayaks.com/canoes.html.

If I had the room to store one more canoe? I'd build one of these !!!

Jim

 

[Guest]

Glenn, interesting option. I like the easily straddled, 30 lb, very stable, self-rescue and blazing fast aspects. As a day trip boat I’d prefer something simply grab and go from the roof racks, with no parts and pieces assembly required.

Many of the places I day paddle can be busy at put ins and take outs, and I like being get-me-outa-here gone fast, quick and easy at both ends.

Got a link to a manufacturer? I love reading about boats, and would like to know more about the assembly/disassembly time and procedures. How long does it take, does it require tools, or level/even ground, can you pull the assembled rig up out of the water on a shallow beach with gear weight intact, etc.

The Epic V5 and Stellar S14S come to mind. But I don't actually know anything about them.

Alan, I had not even considered a surf ski, and there are a lot of seemingly appealing features. Like you I know nothing about them.

I know the conventional wisdom is “Try before you buy”, but I have enough familiarity with open canoes that, given a first-hand visual at the boat - design, length, width, rocker, bow, side and bottom shape - and a look at the spec measurements, I pretty much know how it will paddle and suit my preferences. I can at least accurately guess that “It’s falls somewhere between canoe model X and canoe model Y”, and I know what I like/dislike about those comparison hulls.

I had zero seat time in some of the canoes I’ve owned, and even when I had time it was often brief “Let me try your boat”, noodling around, in one place, in one water condition. But most of the canoes were right about what I expected; surprises and disappoints have been rare.

That familiarity does not extrapolate into appreciation of surf ski design, or specs beyond weight capacity, and I would need significant seat time in one, in a variety of conditions, to have any real clue.

I’m clueless, and will have to try one. And then contemplate the suitability for the places I most often day paddle. In this application I’m thinking lake/bay/open water stuff.

 

[Alan Gage]

I don't know what the line is, if there is a line, between a surf ski and SOT. To me they're mostly the same thing. I guess if it's narrower then it's a surf ski and if you're supposed to drink beer or fish out of it then it's a SOT.

I owned an Epic V8 once. It's the same hull below water as the Epic 18x (billed as a fast touring kayak), which I also owned once. I liked the surf ski model better for what I was doing and I think it would be a good fit for you as well. Getting in/out is much easier than a kayak. Very easy to straddle. Some water will wash over the hull but it just runs back out the drains. If it's hot you just splash water on your legs to cool off. Easy to let legs dangle in the water if you want to be lazy.

Most of the racing surf skis are rudder dependent. You can't paddle one without. I don't know about these smaller ones but I'd guess they're fine without a rudder. The rudder and foot brace are easily adjustable and comfortable.

I really liked the easy reentry factor. Gave me much more confidence in rougher conditions or longer crossings that if I tipped the boat could be easily rentered and I didn't have to worry about draining it first.

Due to the drains a spray skirt isn't required in rough conditions but some have a coaming so you can use one if desired to keep legs warmer/drier in cold weather. I didn't look to see if it was an option on the two I linked or not.

I think it would at least be worth looking into.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Most of the racing surf skis are rudder dependent. You can't paddle one without. I don't know about these smaller ones but I'd guess they're fine without a rudder.

I take that back. I looked at the hull designs again and would say the Stellar for sure is rudder dependent and probably the Epic too. But, as you're aware, if you've got a rudder why wouldn't you want to use it?

The composite Epic is only available with understern rudder. I had one of these on a racing kayak. It worked great, didn't drag in the shallows as much as I thought it would, and was surprisingly robust. You can usually get low profile ones. The Stellar has an overstern rudder.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Glenn, interesting option. I like the easily straddled, 30 lb, very stable, self-rescue and blazing fast aspects. As a day trip boat I’d prefer something simply grab and go from the roof racks, with no parts and pieces assembly required.

Many of the places I day paddle can be busy at put ins and take outs, and I like being get-me-outa-here gone fast, quick and easy at both ends.

Got a link to a manufacturer? I love reading about boats, and would like to know more about the assembly/disassembly time and procedures. How long does it take, does it require tools, or level/even ground, can you pull the assembled rig up out of the water on a shallow beach with gear weight intact, etc.

Mike, I explained with lots of pictures how to disassemble iakos and cartop a va'a (a one seat outrigger canoe), and the circumstances in which they are superior and inferior to standard OC hulls, in this thread from 2014:

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...65-paddling-and-cartopping-an-outrigger-canoe

The iako tubes attach and detach with the same little push buttons as two-piece double paddle, except you need to push four of them. There's then a stubby iako left protruding from the ama that you slide into the hull so the ama abuts the hull for cartopping. Another two button pushes. At lengths of 19-22', a va'a is very light to pick up and carry but ungainly in high winds.

Compared to a surf ski, a va'a is narrower (14") but massively more stable. You will not dump on the ama side, and because of the weight of the ama, you are less likely to dump on the non-ama side. You also sit up noticeably higher on a va'a than a ski. On a ski, you are essentially sitting on the bottom of the hull in a depression. On a va'a you are sitting on a sliding foam seat on top of the hull, giving much much more height leverage for single blading and more visibility than a ski. It's easy to run beaver dams. You just run up on them with the massive rocker and then stand up and pull the hull further forward on the dam underneath you.

You're not going to overnight camp in a va'a, but I set up mine with the hatches so I could, with tents and gear that can fit through 8" hatches. It's a daytripping and exercise hull. New, they are very expensive.

 

[Guest]

I don't know what the line is, if there is a line, between a surf ski and SOT. To me they're mostly the same thing. I guess if it's narrower then it's a surf ski and if you're supposed to drink beer or fish out of it then it's a SOT.

Alan, we have owned a several rec SOT’s and they were great fun. None was narrow enough to comfortably straddle exit, nor very fast, and one (the MRC Synergy), while otherwise a wonderful little boat, was near impossible to get out of. It was a high-sided canoe-SOT combination, and even YC might have had a hard time edging it over enough to swim exit.

Rudder dependency does not bother me, I love having a rudder. I like the “purported” ease of re-entry, although I’d have to test that at my weight and lack of limberness. I do not like full spray skirts; I dress for weather and wet to some degree, and it wouldn’t likely be a “winter boat” when lake stuff is frozen over.

That said, I need to (re)consider the day tripper “dream boat” for local reservoir uses. The nearest-to-home expanse of open water is an 80 square mile reservoir; the single put-in is all of 10 minutes from home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prettyboy_Reservoir

I have had the annual ($100) paddling permit for that reservoir three different times, and never felt I got my money’s worth. With a faster and more efficient hull than my past beater-boat-barges I could get to parts of the reservoir further away, places I have never seen from the water.

There a dozen long arms and deep feeder trib coves on that expansive reservoir, and only one launch for 50 miles of shoreline. It would be a long day paddle from that launch down and back to the arms at the far end of the reservoir, and having hiked most of the shoreline trails I have rarely seen boats, even electric outboards, that far from the launch. A fast hull could open whole new unoccupied worlds on the res.

That same permit grants access to Liberty Reservoir. 40 minutes from home, but another large water-water supply reservoir (and I have never paddled any of it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reservoir

That’s a lot of new waters to see with a hull efficient enough to get there (and back)

I need to have a look at the reservoir permit regulations, which have changed over time, and once had a lot of nonsensical canoe (and later, kayak) restrictions, including minimum length, width and other stuff. I, uh, “fibbed” a bit on the dimensions for some canoe permits that were close enough.

I doubt I could sneak a surf ski past the watershed cops if it didn’t meet the requirements.

 

[Mason]

Mike, I looked at the reservations (still digesting breakfast here), and the limitations are:

"REQUIREMENTS: Boats: Minimums: length 12’ (20’ maximum), width 48”, depth 18” Canoes: Minimums: length 12’ (20’ maximum), width 35” Kayaks: Minimum length 12’ (20’ maximum) Shells: Minimum length 12’ (20’ maximum) Inflatable or collapsible craft, sailboats, pontoon boats, and propane or gasoline-powered motors are prohibited."

So it looks like you have the choice between a canoe with 35" minimum beam (egad), or an up to 20' kayak (AKA surfski?). Thinking about where you plan to paddle, a fast boat that might handle wind would be the ticket, so for big water/wind maybe a SOT/surfski would make sense (at least a lot more sense than a 35" beam open canoe!). Or maybe some type of partially-decked canoe like a SeaWind/Monarch/Loon/Falcon--with these you can paddle single or double blades, and call them a canoe or kayak (to stay within regulations).

I wish I had a lake that close! Then there's also the race boats--J-203, GRB boats (https://www.grbnewmandesigns.com/racing-and-fitness), Savage River...

 

[Guest]

Mike, I looked at the reservations (still digesting breakfast here), and the limitations are:

"REQUIREMENTS: Boats: Minimums: length 12’ (20’ maximum), width 48”, depth 18” Canoes: Minimums: length 12’ (20’ maximum), width 35” Kayaks: Minimum length 12’ (20’ maximum) Shells: Minimum length 12’ (20’ maximum) Inflatable or collapsible craft, sailboats, pontoon boats, and propane or gasoline-powered motors are prohibited."

Many thanks, that was on my to-do list for today. IIRC it was 20 years ago limited to “boats”, typically fishermen with jonboats and electric outboards, and canoes, with that same 35” beam requirement but once with a minimum length of 16’ length.

My 12’ Pack canoe didn’t even mis-measure up, and the canoes I did register were, uh, close if not quite. And still too pokey for exploring 50 miles of shoreline paddled solo.

I believe that kayaks and shell were once prohibited, so the regulations have gotten more liberal, except for that stupid 35” canoe width nonsense. Much of that may have been to prevent swimming, or even much body contact with the water. “Oops I capsized and had to swim ashore”. Or rolling.

Swimming in the reservoir prohibited or not, every High Schooler in the Hereford Zone knows the best skinny dipping places on the shoreline. Same body contact for the sailing prohibition, which would be ideal to cover some distance with a canoe or kayak.

That rowing shells are now permitted leads me to believe that a 14’ long x 23/24” wide surf ski would pass muster.

The other legalistic catch is that a permit holder is required to sign a statement attesting that the boat will be used NO WHERE other than the reservoir(s), for invasive species control. Of course the unregulated river that runs between the two major water supply reservoirs already has invasive Rock Snot and New Zealand Mud Snails, most likely from wading trout anglers, so good luck with that.

And I don’t believe for a minute that every fisherman in a well equipped, trailered boat with electric motor(s) and fish finders and comfy swiveling seats is restricting their use to the reservoir. Same probably goes for some guys paddling canoes that didn’t quite meet minimum specs.

So it looks like you have the choice between a canoe with 35" minimum beam (egad), or an up to 20' kayak (AKA surfski?). Thinking about where you plan to paddle, a fast boat that might handle wind would be the ticket, so for big water/wind maybe a SOT/surfski would make sense (at least a lot more sense than a 35" beam open canoe!). Or maybe some type of partially-decked canoe like a SeaWind/Monarch/Loon/Falcon

I wish I had a lake that close!

It seems a dang shame that I have lived 10 minutes from that reservoir for 30 years and only paddled half of it. Admittedly I’ve already been everywhere I’m gonna paddle to casually solo in a canoe, more than once, and without new destinations to explore reservoir paddling kinda bores me. The No Camping, No Swimming, No Wading, No even freaking getting out of the boat on the shoreline except at the launch takes some shine off. Good thing they don’t regulate the other use for my bailer.

But even the electric motor guys rarely go more than a couple miles from the launch, and there are some far-off deep arms and coves I want to explore. The main stem tributary, which is within easy reach, can be paddled up a considerable distance, more if one calculates “This is moving water, not the reservoir” and wades up past a few river shallows. That trib leads to Hemlock Gorge, an area most often seen from trailside that is even better from a water view.

https://www.hikingproject.com/trail/...ck-gorge-trail

We have a Monarch, and other decked/ruddered canoes, but ideally I would have something faster, or easier to keep at cruising speed with less effort. And shorter/lighter/easier to snatch and grab from the roof racks than the Monarch; I don’t need 17 feet and 50+ lbs of expedition canoe as a day tripping lake and bay hull.

I need to experience how fast a surf ski actually is, or feels in less wetted surface glide and cruising speed effort. The rough calculation length-to-waterline ratio of a Monarch is 7.4. The Epic is less, 7.27, and the Stellar is 6.99. But I’m not paddling theoretical full bore all the time, or even often, and it must be easier to accelerate to and maintain a decent cruising speed in a surf ski. The “accelerate to” is important, I stop to smell the roses (Blue Indigo, Atamasco Lily, Swamp Pink) a lot, or just muckle up solo tucked in near shore for a look and listen. [TABLE="border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 100"]
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I am now surf ski curious. Alan, or others with “fast” canoe vs surf ski, please do tell.

 

[Alan Gage]

Alan, or others with “fast” canoe vs surf ski, please do tell.

That's a little hard for me to quantify. When I was paddling racing kayaks (Epic V8 surf ski and WSBS Thunderbolt) I was much faster in them than I was in a dedicated solo racing canoe (J series). But the really good solo canoe paddlers could beat my kayaks with their canoes. All of them are much faster than a more traditional solo canoe or kayak.

But of course that's race speed and pace. As you slow down the differences become less noticeable. And when you're racing or training to race you generally don't slow down. So I can't really say how a racing surf ski would compare with a fast tripping solo canoe at regular paddling speeds .And the surf skis you're looking at are again in a whole other ball park when compared to the longer, skinnier, racing surf skis (20'x18").

But overall I'd expect those 14' surf skis to be noticeably quicker than pretty much any solo canoe and most other kayaks in that range. One thing I always enjoyed about paddling them was how they were tucked in ahead of the paddling station, which makes swinging that double bladed paddle much more comfortable. You can generally get away with a shorter (lighter) paddle because you don't have to swing so wide to clear the hull. I also enjoyed padding them with a short (46" ) single bladed bent shaft. With the rudder there was no need to switch sides until I felt like it.

And, as you surmised, acceleration with a fast, lightweight hull, is impressive. A few strokes and you're up to speed.

I've always thought one of those little surf skis would be a handy day paddling boat. Lightweight, easy to maneuver both on and off the water, and can eat up the miles or float and relax as you saw fit. I hope you get a chance to try one out. Epic, as far as I know, doesn't sell from retail stores. But there is (or was) a rep in Minneapolis who had demo boats on hand. I got my 18x when he was selling off his old models to buy the new ones. Surf skis should be much more popular in your neck of the woods and I'd think there would be someone out that way representing them. Hopefully they'd have a V5 you could try (or even a V6 just to get a feel for them).

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Presumably this has sold by now, but maybe not: https://www.meetup.com/Chesapeake-Kayak-Adventures/messages/boards/thread/50512810/0

Alan

 

[Guest]

Presumably this has sold by now, but maybe not: https://www.meetup.com/Chesapeake-Kayak-Adventures/messages/boards/thread/50512810/0

I was jonesing on the possibilities of a ruddered surf ski, and almost blind called that near 3 year old ad, but on further surf ski reading came to the conclusion that a ski might not be that enjoyable when “resting” near the shoreline for one of my frequent take-a-break uses, at least without an active paddle.

I stop to smell the roses (Blue Indigo, Atamasco Lily, Swamp Pink) a lot, or just muckle up solo tucked in near shore for a look and listen.

I’m thinking a 27 inch waterline would leave me wanting more stability when I try to look 180 backwards at some passing raptor, or grab a beverage without an active paddle, even with a low seat SOT. I like to sit and look and listen, and don’t want to be constantly sculling or bracing for balance.

As a 2020 reservoir compromise I may permit the lightest of our decked canoes, maybe the Optima, and see if I go out on the reservoir, and get far enough way, often enough, to make the $100 annual permit worthwhile.

Failing that there is always the Memaquay/Iskweo alternative of finding a Y-stern with electric motor, and learning how to back up a trailer.

 

[lowangle al]

The deal for you Mike is a twenty foot Island Falls boat with a trailer and other stuff for 3999.00 advertised on WCHA, and it's in York Pa. I'd buy it if had the room.

 

[Jackpine Jerry]

Just to let everyone know I made a mistake buying a new Prism. If you knew me you would know I hardly ever make mistakes "well sometimes " ok,often. Anyway I recently ordered a Prism. When it arrived a few weeks ago I of course tried it out. It was a bit tippy but after the 4th time out I couldn't believe how tippy it still was. Guess I'm getting too old for these types of canoes. It is a very fast canoe but as I said I'm 66 yrs. old..........At any rate I would like to sell it or trade for maybe a phoenix or similar. Mine is the UL kevlar with wood trim and a very cool portage yoke. If anyone is interested let me know. Thanks,Jerry

 

[yellowcanoe]

Just to let everyone know I made a mistake buying a new Prism. If you knew me you would know I hardly ever make mistakes "well sometimes " ok,often. Anyway I recently ordered a Prism. When it arrived a few weeks ago I of course tried it out. It was a bit tippy but after the 4th time out I couldn't believe how tippy it still was. Guess I'm getting too old for these types of canoes. It is a very fast canoe but as I said I'm 66 yrs. old..........At any rate I would like to sell it or trade for maybe a phoenix or similar. Mine is the UL kevlar with wood trim and a very cool portage yoke. If anyone is interested let me know. Thanks,Jerry

I think there is a classified section here. Also useful is where you are. Lots of people might like the Prism but need to think about a long road trip though we can sometimes relay boats.

 

[Jackpine Jerry]

Thanks yellowcanoe I will keep that in mind. I,m thinking of coming your way in late winter or early spring to visit relatives. MY family settled there on Gotts island . My last name is Gotts. Anyway, thanks for the tip.

 

[CampButterfeet]

I just picked up an "81" old town berrigan in pretty nice shape. i think we are going to get it on the water saturday.
I'll let you know what i think Monday