I can see that if our dealings ever get more personal than typing from 2000 miles away I'm going to have to stay on my toes. I like the way you think.
Alan
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Happy Mathematics Day! ❌📐♾️
In Search of a Gunnel Repair Solution
- Thread starter Will Derness
- Start date
I can see that if our dealings ever get more personal than typing from 2000 miles away I'm going to have to stay on my toes. I like the way you think.
Alan
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Friend and fellow boat tinkerer DougD and I have been mailing each other sundry odd gear and outfitting stuff for several years.
All of the packages Doug has received from me have sported a large company logo, product name and description taped to the back of the box.
Fictitious companies and products. I don’t even remember what all I have sent him over the years. The Russian Bride Catalog, Senior Edition, with photos of toothless babushkas was an early one. As was the Blow Up Doll Repair Kit with photos of male sex dolls.
The last thing I sent him was a pair of paddle pogies, labeled Wee Willy Winkie Anti Masturbatory Mittens, complete with a Wee Willie Winkie logo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Willie_Winkie
I’ll let Doug tell you about the reaction at the Penacook Post Office, and from his mail lady Tara, whom I’ve met. I will tell you that the folks in my Post Office start laughing the minute I walk in the door, and are disappointed when it isn’t a DougD package.
The best thing I ever sent Doug was a box of disposable Nitrile gloves. I very carefully opened one end of the box, removed the slab of 100 gloves, picked 10 gloves off the top…… and slit the length of the middle finger on each one with a razor blade before putting them back in the “unopened” box.
Alan, PM me your mailing address.
sailsman63 Can't tell for sure from the photos said:
Removing the gunnels and then working on them is an excellent suggestion. None of the rivets are loose, but it is not difficult at all to drill them out.
One advantage to that approach is one doesn't have to drill any new holes - simply re-install using the existing holes. I wonder if the aluminum has been formed into shape and the curve that is needed in them is set in place. Or upon removal will the aluminum "spring" back to its original linear property and require 4 or 6 hands to force the aluminum back to the curves that are needed?
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Willie, I like that idea best of all. Once those aluminum gunwales have their factory installed sheerline warp to them I believe they will largely retain their shape. Aluminum gunwales that have been pinned certainly want to retain that shape.
I guess you should be able to hit the old holes with new pop rivets. Of course is something does slip 1/8 inch out of alignment you’ll have to redrill a new hole awfully adjacent to an old existing hole, and if those two holes overlap you’ll have a sloppy through hull connection. Still, if it worked, everything including the yoke and carry hands could go back in their original gunwale holes. I like the no new holes idea.
I do not know how manufacturers install their aluminum gunwales, but I suspect that they may have machinery to pre-bend them to specific model hull shapes, both along the curves ( ) and along the rise from center depth to stem. That would make factory floor installation much easier.
Does anyone know? Do manufacturers pre-bend their aluminum gunwales to some custom curvature, making OEM installation easier?
I like the idea of having the gunwales off completely to assist in removing the cladding on the gunwale sides where you might inadvertently scrape up the hull. But I’d try running an RO sander with 220 grit or so along the still pop riveted firmly in place flat gunwale top before removing them. You won’t build a better jig to hold them in place than that.
If it proves too difficult a task to mechanically remove the flat topside layer of cladding with an RO sander I’d think hand sanding the edges would be a true PITA.
If you take the gunwales off you could experiment with some stripper to help remove the whatever the heck that is. A can of paint, varnish or ? stripper applied with the gunwales removed might save a lot of time and elbow grease.
Given the anodizing information supplied in responses above, those ain’t anodized. Allow me:
http://bfy.tw/1D7c
I've seen Charlie mention on other forums that many of the gunwales are prebent before installation. If they're bent in one dimension or two I'm not sure.
I know when working with wood that when you try to bend it in two dimensions at once (UP to account for shear and IN to account for curvature of the hull) it makes things much more difficult as the wood seems to want to roll over and twist. But if you pre-bend the wood UP to somewhat match the shear it makes installation much easier and bending it IN doesn't fight you near as hard. The wood doesn't want to roll and twist anymore.
I've removed and reinstalled gunwales from two canoes, both were old Wenonah Jensen WWC1's. When I removed the gunwales I cut the hull height down about 1 1/2" so I had to drill new holes going back together. I honestly can't remember how much shape the gunwales retained after removal but I do remember they didn't just fall back on. It was quite a bit of frustrating work but I didn't have any help. It didn't help that the hulls were very floppy with the gunwales removed. The second one went much smoother but an extra set of hands would have made all the difference.
The extra set (or two) of hands doesn't need to be experienced, they just need to be there. Otherwise as you start walking the gunwale into place it keeps popping out on you. Doesn't take a lot of strength to hold it in place. Start on one end, have someone hold it in place, and start walking your way down the hull. When you get to the other end have someone else hold it in place. Then you go back to the middle and start drilling holes and putting in rivets. Some good duct tape might be enough to stand in for the other hands. Why didn't I think of that 5 years ago?
If you want to reuse the old holes I'd start by installing one end, get the first hole lined up and put a nut and bolt (loose) through to hold it in place. Then start working it on the rest of the hull and install a couple more bolts along the way. This would probably negate the need for a second set of hands and seems like it would be quite easy....funny how things tend to work out different in real life as opposed to imagination though.
I remember one issue with mine was that the gunwale was quite straight and the floppy hull started off conforming to the gunwale rather than the other way around. Eventually, as more was installed, the boat started to take shape, but I was worried for a bit. If that happens to you the rest of your rivet holes might hot actually line up until 1/2 or 3/4 of the gunwale is in place. Which is why that first one will need to be held with a bolt or something. I don't think there will be any adjustments made once the gunwale is in place.
Alan
The Problem in Full Scale
Before I loaded the canoe for an extended paddle tomorrow, I took the opportunity to take a steel paint scraper to any gunnel covering with flaking or bubbling underneath.
Here's the result. I'm pretty sure this is a paint, given the info provided us on the thickness of an anodized surface - it is to have those knowledgeable about that stuff chiming. There will be more to remove when I spend some time on it, but this got about 90-95 % of the problem areas.
Notice how the problem seems to located on mostly one side. A canoe laid on its side would take the most beating from collecting water on the low side.
Hull Fabric
There is a scratch in the hull's interior and it reveals the underlying fabric. Any thoughts on the fabric? Kevlar?
Before I loaded the canoe for an extended paddle tomorrow, I took the opportunity to take a steel paint scraper to any gunnel covering with flaking or bubbling underneath.
Here's the result. I'm pretty sure this is a paint, given the info provided us on the thickness of an anodized surface - it is to have those knowledgeable about that stuff chiming. There will be more to remove when I spend some time on it, but this got about 90-95 % of the problem areas.
Notice how the problem seems to located on mostly one side. A canoe laid on its side would take the most beating from collecting water on the low side.
Hull Fabric
There is a scratch in the hull's interior and it reveals the underlying fabric. Any thoughts on the fabric? Kevlar?
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Alan, I really wouldn't if I were you unless your mail delivery person has a great sense of humor! ;-)
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Willie, given that scale of cladding already removed from the gunwales going all the way seems a logical route.
Could be kevlar. It is really had to tell the actual size of the weave in that close up. It kinda looks like the inside was painted. No idea what Swift did in the early 90's.
If it's yellow, it's Kevlar.
Weight of the hull should help tell between fiberglass and Kevlar. If it's heavy, it's glass, light would indicate Kevlar.
I've seen fiberglass in that weave, but not Kevlar.
I could be wrong, just from my observation.
Jim
Weight of the hull should help tell between fiberglass and Kevlar. If it's heavy, it's glass, light would indicate Kevlar.
I've seen fiberglass in that weave, but not Kevlar.
I could be wrong, just from my observation.
Jim
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Except for the yellowish color tt looks almost like woven roving fiberglass, but it is hard to tell the actual size of the weave in a close up without something else in the photo for perspective. Perhaps there was a similar, thick stranded kevlar back in the day?
I'd guess some kind of paint on the inside, not gel coat.
I have ordered aluminum and wood gunwales from Wenonah for various customers and I have yet to see a prebent set. I don't think I've ordered any vinyl clad ones from Old Town. It is possible some builders do pre bend but I know Wenonah doesn't.
Dave
Dave
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I have never seen anything but straight replacement aluminum gunwales. If any of the manufacturers do pre-vend them for factory installation I expect that shipping or transporting pre-bent gunwales would be problematic.
I toured the Old Town factory, and the Dagger factory in Harriman TN, back in the 90’s. Interesting stuff, but I did not see them install any aluminum gunwales. I’d love to see how they do it in the factory with one piece AL gunwales.
Is there some trick to it, or does it involve three shop monkeys, putty knives, a rubber mallet and $2 in the swear jar?
Seems I remember Charlie saying they had a machine for it. Maybe with 3 rollers? I took it they were bent at the time of installation, not necessarily before hand and kept in stock or sent out as replacements.
Alan
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I can see how shipping or transporting pre-bent gunwales would be more difficult and possibly more prone to damage than shipping straight ones.
If manufacturers do pre-bend their gunwales for factory installation I wonder if they would want to be in the business of bending a replacement set, even for a known, still in production hull.
There must be some machine set up or guide, or some serious craftsmanship eyeballing, to pre-bending aluminum to different sheerline curves.
Doing so for a discontinued model, or worse, some other companies hull, wouldn’t be worth the time and effort and probable customer complaints.
For the home repair, a person could set up a jig, but it would take a lot of trial and error. And error could be costly or at least ugly.
I'm imagining using a strongback with some plywood forms at about 12"spacings. You may have to exaggerate the bends because of the memory in aluminum.
A few extra shop monkeys could be helpful.
I guess I'll have to wait until I get a set of aluminum gunnels, or some brave soul here does it, and shares the experience !. HINT HINT !
Jim
I'm imagining using a strongback with some plywood forms at about 12"spacings. You may have to exaggerate the bends because of the memory in aluminum.
A few extra shop monkeys could be helpful.
I guess I'll have to wait until I get a set of aluminum gunnels, or some brave soul here does it, and shares the experience !. HINT HINT !
Jim
Jim Dodd;n33606 I guess I'll have to wait until I get a set of aluminum gunnels said:
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That would make me suspect of every other seat hanger rivet at the least. And maybe of the the gunwale rivets, especially where the gunwale is weathered flakey and noticeably corroded.
If not corroded some of the pop rivets may have been install catching only the teensy top of the hull material. You really never know how well a canoe was constructed until you take it apart. I’d seen some awful near hit and some complete misses, both in gunwale screws/pop rivets and in thwarts and yokes held on by the barest of butt end margin.
The amount of corrosion on the cladding exposed gunwales is pretty remarkable. I’ve never seem aluminum corroded like that, other than unearthing 30 year old Budweiser cans, back when they had pull ring tabs.
I wonder if the original owner lived in a salt water environment? Did the guy you bought it from live near tidal waters?
20 years of poor rinsing, storage and maintenance might be enough to degrade aluminum rivets. I know Florida friends who have salt water maintenance issues with their canoes.
BTW – I have made several blue cardstock copies of your Certificate of Origin, and changed the HIN on all but one. Do you feel lucky at random draw?
If the manufacturer's plate is still there I think they put a k in the number for Kevlar boats.
The best option if you would like to re-use those gunwales is to take them of and have them blast cleaned with a plastic or walnut shell media then powder coated again. I guess you could paint them with some epoxy paint.
The best option if you would like to re-use those gunwales is to take them of and have them blast cleaned with a plastic or walnut shell media then powder coated again. I guess you could paint them with some epoxy paint.
