Grizzly Bears

[Glenn MacGrady]

Tom Smith has published a number of articles on pepper spray. Here are a couple of links to discussions:

Shoot or Spray? The Best Way to Stop a Charging Bear

While many gun proponents remain adamant that firearms offer better protection against a charging bear than pepper spray, a growing body of scientific research suggests otherwise

www.outsideonline.com

Does Bear Spray Work?

The science is clear, right? Not so fast, according to, well, science.

www.outsideonline.com

Also: Smith TS, Herrero S, DeBruyn TD, Wilder J. 2008. Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska. The Journal of Wildlife Management. 72:640-645.

In the second article linked by Mason, Tom Smith makes a huge retreat from the widely-held perception that pepper spray is 98% effective against bears and is more effective than a gun. Smith admits that his research on spray (with Herrero and others) was underinclusive in the data they used. In the vast majority of cases that involved spraying bears, the bears were exhibiting merely unaggressive or curiosity behavior, not actually charging or being aggressive. He admits the data show only about a 33% effectiveness of spray against actually charging bears compared to the 76%-95% efficacy of guns against charging bears, depending on study interpretation.

The author of the article calls the effectiveness claims about spray to be "propaganda" and "misinformation." He concludes (my italics):

"My entire purpose for writing this article is to illustrate that the exaggerated effectiveness of bear spray is getting in the way of more important advice on bear safety. Here in Bozeman, Montana, just north of Yellowstone, it’s common to see people being told to carry bear spray any time they go on a hike, but almost always, the advice stops there. And while the spray may be effective at deterring a curious bear, it cannot be shown to have the ability to effectively stop an actual bear attack. Something more is needed.

"Is that something more a firearm? 'If you’re competent, then a firearm is a valuable, time-tested deterrent, says Tom Smith."

The important caveat about the effectiveness of guns is this: "But user competency is the largest determining factor in the successful use of a firearm. 'When a person is competent with firearms—and I mean competent under pressure—it is an effective deterrent I highly recommend,' he says. 'Conversely, those with little to no firearm experience shouldn’t rely on a firearm to save them from a close encounter with a bear.'"

Finally, there is hugely important practical bear deterrent advice: “'To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen an instance where two or more persons have remained grouped, whether standing their ground or backing from a bear, that the bear made contact,' says Tom Smith."

Too bad this practical advice is of no use to the solo canoeist.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

In the second article linked by Mason, Tom Smith makes a huge retreat from the widely-held perception that pepper spray is 98% effective against bears and is more effective than a gun. Smith admits that his research on spray (with Herrero and others) was underinclusive in the data they used. In the vast majority of cases that involved spraying bears, the bears were exhibiting merely unaggressive or curiosity behavior, not actually charging or being aggressive. He admits the data show only about a 33% effectiveness of spray against actually charging bears compared to the 76%-95% efficacy of guns against charging bears, depending on study interpretation.

The author of the article calls the effectiveness claims about spray to be "propaganda" and "misinformation." He concludes (my italics):

"My entire purpose for writing this article is to illustrate that the exaggerated effectiveness of bear spray is getting in the way of more important advice on bear safety. Here in Bozeman, Montana, just north of Yellowstone, it’s common to see people being told to carry bear spray any time they go on a hike, but almost always, the advice stops there. And while the spray may be effective at deterring a curious bear, it cannot be shown to have the ability to effectively stop an actual bear attack. Something more is needed.

"Is that something more a firearm? 'If you’re competent, then a firearm is a valuable, time-tested deterrent, says Tom Smith."

The important caveat about the effectiveness of guns is this: "But user competency is the largest determining factor in the successful use of a firearm. 'When a person is competent with firearms—and I mean competent under pressure—it is an effective deterrent I highly recommend,' he says. 'Conversely, those with little to no firearm experience shouldn’t rely on a firearm to save them from a close encounter with a bear.'"

Finally, there is hugely important practical bear deterrent advice: “'To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen an instance where two or more persons have remained grouped, whether standing their ground or backing from a bear, that the bear made contact,' says Tom Smith."

Too bad this practical advice is of no use to the solo canoeist.

This has been my working assumption based on reading and watching videos of every bear spray evaluation I can get my hands on. So many of the video "proofs" do not appear to be showing real attacks.

The reality is that there is no penalty for spraying a bear "just in case" it's a serious attack - but the general perception is that if you shoot one, you better be able to show evidence that the attack was real. Whether true or not, those differences in expectations must definitely have the effect of skewed data. Whether the percentages are that widely different or the level of competence that important are up for debate IMO, but there's no question in my mind that the efficacy of bear spray has been overblown.

All that to say - as usual, the best fight to have is the one you avoid.

 

[ppine]

If we put aside the discussion about bear spray vs firearms, it becomes more obvious that avoiding bears is the best way of staying safe.
Do not travel early and late. Stay out of deep brush like alders and tall grass. Make plenty of noise when you travel. Avoid surprising them when they are sleeping during the day, feeding or anytime with cubs. Avoid them in general. When you see one clear the area. Get off the trail. Give them room. Avoid eye contact and slink away. Don't be a threat. Give then a way out.

Don't sleep near anything that resembles or smells like food. I like dogs in bear country. They are my first line of defense. A good mule or mountain horse will also give you plenty of notice if one is around.

I remember fondly portaging a distant trail in the BWCA 40 years ago. I was carrying an aluminum rental canoe and the bear that saw me could not leave fast enough. Unfortunately some black bears are not so easy to convince. Never under estimate them. They gave us more trouble in Alaska than the huge coastal browns.

 

[lowangle al]

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you shoot and kill a grizzly in self defense in Alaska you are required to salvage the hide and then turn it over to the state. If it's a black bear you may also need to salvage the meat but I'm not sure about this. At any rate, killing a bear may require more work than you are willing or able to do.

For the above reason, if I'm tripping in an area where brown bear permits are available I would buy one. They used to be 25.00 for a resident. I had no desire to ever harvest a grizzly, but if I ever had to shoot one in self defense I'd at least like to keep the hide especially after doing all the work..

 

[PaddlingPitt]

Kathleen and I usually carried bear spray, bear bangers and a .308 rifle on our extended canoe trips in northern Canada. I have fired the bear spray at home to see how far it would go. Not very far, it turns out. It would be a close-in defence. Spray would be even less effective shooting upwind. It would be very considerate of the bear if it would attack from our downwind position.

We are good friends here in Preeceville with a retired Conservation Officer, who has extensive training in potentially lethal situations. His instructors always cautioned the class that bear spray does not always stop a knife-wielding attacker filled with adrenaline. I suspect that a charging grizzly, intent on mayhem would similarly be able to inflict serious damage after being sprayed.

I estimate that I have seen approximately 40 grizzlies while on the ground with them. Kathleen and I try our best to avoid them, but it’s not always possible. I have shown this image in a previous thread, of this grizzly, on the Thelon River, that came out of the shrubs on the ridge as we were stopping for a snack break. It wasn’t aggressive, just curious. We immediately headed down river, looking for a different beach to enjoy our snack. Grizzly headed back toward the shrubs on the ridge.

 

[Gamma1214]

If it's a black bear you may also need to salvage the meat

I realize that PA is, seemingly, one of the few places (maybe on the planet) where people actually eat bears but Grizzly meat isn't edible? Seems really disrespectful to just kill one for the hide... I'd have to be pretty darn cold for that to be justified IMO.

 

[lowangle al]

I don't think grizzly meat is commonly eaten in Alaska. I even think it taboo in some Native cultures. Alaska is very tough on the wanton wasting of game but you are not required to harvest the meat of grizzlies, wolves or wolverines.

 

[ppine]

Al,
I have talked with some people that live in the Far North in the Northwest Territories. One was a wildlife biologist. Much to my surprise he informed me that grizzly bears and even polar bears are commonly used for food by Natives as well as the general population in the NWT. Bears are their main source of protein. Caribou are only available in some areas and at certain times of the years. Ptarmigan and snowshoe hares are common, but bears provide a large amount of protein. Very interesting to contemplate.

 

[lowangle al]

Ppine, I did a google search to refresh my memory on this and found an article "The Indigenous Peoples of the Yukon and Grizzly Bears". It stated that some Yukon cultures see the grizzly as a kin to man and eating them would be like cannibalism to them. This doesn't explain why the state doesn't require the meat to be harvested.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

". . . Boux says the grizzly bear 'was guarding a dead elk. It stood up looked at the 3 rafts looked at the kayaker and bolted after him. I’ve spent a f*** ton of time around grizzly’s. They are pretty unpredictable, especially if guarding a food source.'"

Grizzly bear chases Squamish kayaker in scary encounter caught on video

A scary encounter between a grizzly bear and a kayaker near Squamish was caught on tape on Tuesday.

vancouversun.com

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Probably just a case of guilt by association.

 

[ppine]

Look at it this way.
Learn to use firearms. Become proficient with them. Get used to shooting large caliber rifles and very large caliber pistols, .454 Casull and up.
Then do everything in your power to make sure that you never have to use firearms around bears.

 

[ppine]

I was camping this morning in the Sierra and up drinking coffee at first light with my dog. I heard growling twice in the willows behind me. I got up with a start. It stopped after awhile. A local campground bear was killed in the area last week.

 

[Alan Gage]

I was camping this morning in the Sierra and up drinking coffee at first light with my dog. I heard growling twice in the willows behind me. I got up with a start. It stopped after awhile. A local campground bear was killed in the area last week.

Just curious how the dog reacted?

Alan

 

[ppine]

Hi Alan,
My dog has been around a lot of wildlife. She was totally silent but on alert. Earlier she barked a couple of times at deer that approached camp. I told her to be quiet and she was.

 

[Alan Gage]

Hi Alan,
My dog has been around a lot of wildlife. She was totally silent but on alert. Earlier she barked a couple of times at deer that approached camp. I told her to be quiet and she was.

I know your dog goes out with you a lot and I was just curious how she reacts in those situations.

When I hear something odd I always look at Sadie first. If she looks concerned/upset then I get concerned. I figure she has better smell and hearing (at least before she went deaf) than I do and that she probably has a better idea what's out there, if anything. I know how she usually reacts to deer, squirrels, grouse, or bear.

There have been times she's put my mind at ease by seeming to ignore a noise I'm unfamiliar with and there have been times when she's made me very uneasy by refusing to settle down and staring into the woods in the same direction while growling lightly with her hackles up when I haven't heard or seen anything.

One day we were out for a hike in the Chiricahua Mountains and before we got to within 100 yards of this lion kill I was on alert because of the way Sadie suddenly started acting and sniffing at signs. It was obvious from her actions that it was something she was concerned with.

20170206_023 by Alan, on Flickr

A few days later some Javelina were outside camp rustling nearby in the dark. I could hear them plainly but wasn't sure what it was at first. I looked at Sadie and she seemed a little curious but unconcerned. She'd never seen a Javelina before but undoubtedly she'd smelled them numerous times and she didn't believe them to be a threat.

Alan

 

[ppine]

Good insight by Alan.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

this lion kill

What is that black mass?

 

[Alan Gage]

What is that black mass?

A cow.

I have my doubts that a mountain lion killed a full grown cow but maybe it came across a sick one and finished it off or came across a recently deceased one and claimed it for itself.

The body was partially buried in dirt and leaves. The head (which is facing the camera) and the legs were completely covered. From what I read this seems to be pretty common lion behavior.

Sadie was pretty worked up and everything seemed pretty fresh so I didn't have the guts to hang around and uncover any of it to check for wounds.

Alan

 

[ppine]

Do not under estimate mountain lions. My Dad had a ranch in northern Arizona for 30 years. We planned on some mortality from lions. After awhile we left the horns on all of our cattle to give them better defense against predation.