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Ethical dilemma

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Would love to buy a new canoe from a local retailer and canoeing related items also. The closest place that sells a new canoe that is worth bringing home is two and a half hours each way. Most of the trip through heavy traffic. Sell two brands of canoes which do not make the type of canoe I wish to buy and have moved to being more for the kayak in the small items.

Other than the unavailability of the make and model of what I wish to buy their is the cost. Have been trying to figure out how to be able to afford a new light weight canoe. The Bell Northstar in fiberglass will become a bit much in a few years for us to be able to manhandle around. Been putting every spare penny toward the fund for the Northstar replacement. Missing trips and not buying other equipment to save for new canoe. Also trying to find used. Just gave up this last week. Ordered new contour seats from Eds canoe last week and will be buying self inflating life vest and ZRE paddles soon. All are not available at any local shops and will be funded from the Northstar replacement fund. The dream is over.

As to going into a store to ask questions and then buy on the internet. If I can find it in a store I will pay what I call the touchy feely tax. You have to pay to touch and feel. As for advice from sales people. Well, most sales people today have their own ethical dilemma. They want to sell what is in stock and will make the most profit not what would be best for what is needed. What I tend to do nowadays is ask the experts on this board and then get the items how ever I can. Locating canoeing equipment here in Florida is a scavenger hunt. If it is not used on a kayak you can not get it easy.
 
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just goes to show you the more picky you get the more you go to cottage industries. No way could the owner of Colden Canoe do a dealer network for example. Stores charge for product placement. Its more investment for him to do a store. Many of the people we buy gear from have primary jobs. Dan Cooke does something else for a day job. Paul Meyer owns a window washing company. Dan Kidd of Tug Eyes is an industrial engineer.
Another that was thought to be commercial here is just doing paddlemaking and event organizing for a hobby, and not for profit.. the real job is roofing.

Once past a certain point of mass appeal stuff, you can just quit being bothered about the unavailability of good stuff in stores.

The cost is higher for the convenience of buying high end stuff in a store. If Coldens were in a store, that would be a full time job for him ,requiring more staff and more expenses.
There is a trade off.

I dont mind at all not having a store near me. I do have Beans and they have knowlegeable boat people there but the stuff is for entry level and not serious canoe tripping.
 
Also trying to find used. Just gave up this last week...........will be funded from the Northstar replacement fund. The dream is over.
Click to expand...

How about expanding your search zone and using the drive to pick it up as a mini-vacation? Used Northstars, while not terribly common up here, show up every now and again and are selling for a around $1300 in Black Gold (hardly see any other layups) Saw a Black Gold in perfectly serviceable but not pretty condition sell for $900 after a long wait. If you buy something in the Minneapolis area I'd be happy to pick it up and hold it for you until you could get up this way.

Besides Craigslist the classifieds at BWCA.com seem to provide the best deals.

Alan
 
BWCA com is not useful in the East. What works here is the abundance of canoe symposia and paddling.net
There is a direct link it seems from the East to FL and it's not too hard to find a boat ( relatively) and find it a ride South
Depends on where you are what works best
Northeast Paddlers Message Boatd but mostly for whitewater

Old Town Canoes are everywhere on Craigslist
 
yellowcanoe said:
No way could the owner of Colden Canoe do a dealer network for example. Stores charge for product placement.
Click to expand...

I think that dealers typically get boats from (larger) manufacturers on a net 30 or net 60 invoices, meaning the manufacturer extends credit for 30 or 60 days to the retailer. Depending on the terms, after 30 or 60 days the dealer then has to pay the invoice even if the boat remained unsold.

Terms sometimes include accruing interest after 30/60 days, but I think for canoe retailers it was a straight “Pay in full by this date”. On other big ticket items the dealer actually gets a (small, like 1-2%) discount if the invoice is paid within a shorter time frame. Again, probably not canoes.

The dealer’s profit is, obviously, the mark up, but if a boat sits around for a year or two unsold that margin begins to vanish as the dust accrues. Outfitter lists of in-stock canoes/kayaks often show a price reduction, sometimes by year, on unsold canoes. Read also “Outfitters prefer to stock boats they know will sell within a month or two”. Or four months, or even six. But not a year or two later.

That model works for the Wenonahs and Mad Rivers (Swifts, Nova Crafts and Esquifs). Niche canoe builders have a couple of added stumbling blocks. They may run so small and tight that net 60 doesn’t keep enough cash flowing, and retailers may be hesitant to lay out $3000 for a niche canoe that could sit around for a couple years until a flush buyer stumbles through the door. Especially if the builder competes with them by selling custom come-and-get-it from their shop.

Delivery is another complication. The bigger boys send a giant 30+ boat trailer and unload a dozen boats at a couple or three different stops along the way. The giant Old Towns or Mad Rivers can empty a tractor trailer at one store.

I know for fact that the shop monkeys do not look forward to the long sweaty day when the mid-summer semi of Old Towns arrives. I bet the absentee rate at Wally World or Bass Pro is something to behold when the semi full of tea-cup nestled, assemble-on-site naked Pelican hulls arrive.

For a niche builder to send a single canoe to a dealer 3 States away is not cost effective.

Free delivery is, or was, a dealer expectation. One of the (many) reasons for the failure of the last iteration of Bell Canoe was that the new owners (ORC) didn’t understand their dealer network and wanted to charge the retailers delivery fees. I seem to remember that ORC Bell didn’t even want to accept the usual net 30/60 terms. Pay us now, and, oh yeah, transport is on you.

The dealers said “Uh, thanks, but no thanks”. Deathblow. That whole Bell ORC thing was the strangest manufacturer segue ever, way weirder than Mad River’s Jim Henry/Kay Henry/Confluence/whoever the hell owns them now Vermont to NC to SC moves, or the various iterations and fascinating failures of Sawyer Canoe.

I’m glad not to be in that business on either end, builder or seller. It is more about passion than business sense, especially for a niche builder.

There is a joke in there somewhere, “How to make a million dollars in the canoe business? Start with 2 millon!”.
 
You either keep up with the times, or get swept away.

Herters is a good example.

River towns in South East Iowa, that were prosperous in the 1850s, then turned into Ghost towns when the railroad roads arrived. They are still today surprisingly low populated.

Jim
 
This thread came back to mind this morning as I was getting some shop supplies in town. I might not have a canoe/camping store close by but we're very fortunate to have in our small town two excellent hardware stores and a really nice lumberyard. An Ace Hardware that is well stocked and well staffed and more in the style of newer hardware stores. Also an older style farm store that's a bit like stepping back in time. Almost all fasteners are available in bulk and there's a little something of everything tucked away in some corner of the store. Many times when I'm working on a DIY project I'll spend 30 minutes roaming the store not quite knowing what I'm looking for but knowing that somewhere I'll stumble across something that will work. This is where the farmers all come when they have equipment break down so lots of gears, belts, pulleys, and hydraulic stuff.

The lumberyard in town isn't anything special in the way of what they carry but more in the way that it's run and the supplier networks they use. They stock the common stuff everyone uses but in a few days can get just about anything you could ask for from specialty lumber to Kerdy shower systems. They have surprisingly good prices and despite the fact there are multiple lumberyards in the wealthy tourist town 15 miles away they still do a lot of business over there. Always good staff with low turnover. The lumberyard is never locked so I can stop by Sunday afternoon, take whatever I want, and just let them know Monday morning.

I didn't know all this until I decided to build my own house about 5 years ago. I didn't have a clue what I was doing but knew that I'd be using non-standard construction methods and some non-standard materials as well. The last thing I wanted was "personal service" where I had to tell a salesman, who is used to working with the regular local contractors and knows how things are normally done, about the goofy stuff I wanted to do and then have him try to talk me out of it. Instead I wanted to use the big box store 45 minutes away where I could just tell them what I wanted with hopefully no questions asked. But the local yard is a good customer of ours so I felt forced to use them. Turned out to be a really lucky break. The salesman I got never once rolled his eyes (at least not to my face, which is good enough for me) and was extremely helpful in searching out materials as well as walking me through some things. There were so many things to learn about building a house that it was mind boggling and there was no way I could research them all. It was so nice just to walk into his office and ask him what my options were for soffits, what most people in the area used, and what he thought was best.

And to sweeten the deal their prices were actually cheaper than the semi-local big box store and the quality of the lumber was on average a lot better too.

I do anything and everything I can to support these 3 local businesses because I'd be lost without them. This is re-confirmed every time I have to go to the big box store for some odd thing that I need today. I can't get out of there fast enough and many times leaving empty handed because they don't have what I want either. I can't believe so many people make it their first stop.

Alan
 
How's about this for ethical
Try to win a quart of Epifanes varnish for a fifty cent raffle ticket. Fail
Ask the guy at the show who is the dealer and donated the varnish for the raffle to unpack his car for one quart that now alas you will have to buy. The guy packed just before the raffle but stuck around.
Would you?
 
I work in the home decorating industry, and I see the tussle between customer and retailer, customer and decorator all the time. There can't be much difference between consumer habits regardless of the product or service sought, whether it be canoes or cans of paint. The bane of stores nowadays is "showrooming", where a customer spends time in a bricks & mortar store peppering the sales staff with questions and quandaries, and then leaving with armloads of samples and brochures, a head full of ideas and designs, all for "free" as they choose to spend their money on-line or at discount box stores instead. It all reminds me of the the old attitude of small restaurants "Washrooms are for customers only". Despite some industries growing (home improvement, recreation, food) it seems the race for the consumer dollar is getting tighter; there's only so much consumer cash to compete for. I provide advice and opinion for free whether I'm hired or not; maybe I'm a fool but I think it's one way of developing a relationship potentially leading to employment for me. But there have been times I've blown off a saturday morning giving while the potential customer has been taking, with the sinking feeling "Oh, these people are another one of those. They'll shop at the bargain barn for supplies, and then hire their useless nephew to do the work." No matter, if I were to be less friendly and less helpful I'd no longer be the small guy in a big business world and start to resemble the big faceless giant only wanting to see the colour of your money. Perhaps the biggest difference between big stores and little, on-line and bricks&mortar, niche and one-stop-shopping, might be the personal experienced service.
End of rambling rant.
 
yellowcanoe said:
How's about this for ethical
Try to win a quart of Epifanes varnish for a fifty cent raffle ticket. Fail
Ask the guy at the show who is the dealer and donated the varnish for the raffle to unpack his car for one quart that now alas you will have to buy. The guy packed just before the raffle but stuck around.
Would you?
Click to expand...

I dunno. If it was a product rep or vendor who was selling the stuff at the event it would seem a small customer service price to pay for goodwill.

Too many unknowns though.

If I had been standing at a booth selling stuff all day and had finally packed up when a customer only now decided to buy a quart of varnish I might have to weigh my decision. How much unpacking do I need to do to fetch the varnish, receipt pad, etc? How tired or ready to hit the road I felt. How I was approached.

Maybe not.
 
Our local paddle shop (Idaho River Sports) seems to be doing quite well these days, I think partly because of the SUP craze and partly because the owners have made some very smart decisions regarding location and marketing. We are fortunate to have a pretty active paddling community and lots of good water in our area, and I think that also helps. Nevertheless, I make it a point to go there for paddling supplies other than what I buy used or they simply can't get reasonably soon. I never bought a boat there (although I've been close to doing so), but I have bought one from the paddle shop in the next nearest large city (IRS didn't stock what I thought I wanted). Three of my canoes probably were bought at IRS by the original purchaser.

I don't feel unethical about my practices in this regard, but I don't feel especially altruistic in this either. The fact is, I feel it is in my best interest to support the local specialty shop where I can try things on for size and expect to find certain items no one else will stock. I never felt obligated to support a shop just because it's local, but ours always treats the customer well and supports the sport. Most of my paddling friends and I are quick to send new paddlers their way. I usually advise prospective purchasers away from the big box stores and their typical inferior paddling products. There's more than one way to support your local shop. ;)
 
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