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Ethical dilemma

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Glenn’s thoughts on the passing of paddlesport shops raises a curious ethical dilemma.

Why would such a long-time successful paddlesport dealer fail? The economy in general? Decline in demand for kayaks now as well as canoes? The Genghis Khan horde of cheap rec kayaks sold from big box stores pillaging the world?

the fourth punch in the gut to paddlesports shops has probably been the inter-net and on-line sales.

The inter-net in part because paddlers can often find the boat of their dreams used and much cheaper than retail new, and can research gear and equipment from their couch.

OK, that is not just an altruistic ethical dilemma. From the standpoint of immediate availability convenience and knowledgeable advice I’d be screwed if I didn’t have a paddle shop an hour’s drive away. The retail mark up is well worth the one-stop shopping and pro advice.

I do visit my brick and mortar folks a couple times a year, and always leave with more oh-cool-lookee-there stuff than I came for. But if I need a full spool of rescue rope or 100 pad eyes for shop stock, I look for discounts, coupons or sales and order stuff on line.

It doesn’t help my tinge of ethical regret that I have not bought a new retail canoe in 20 years.

How do you handle that? Do you care?
 
How do you handle that? Do you care?

Good question and I'm sure one we all struggle with.

I have to drive 3 hours one way to get to any decent camping/paddling store so that helps me justify many of my internet purchases. Also the fact that many times they don't carry the things I'm actually interested in. I try to buy everything I can from them but it doesn't always work out with my schedule (leave for trip in 2 weeks but will not be in Minneapolis before then) or with their in-stock merchandise.

Despite a knowledgeable staff at both Midwest Mountaineering and Northwest Canoe you won't find me picking their brains all that often simply because I'm not good at that sort of thing. I'm not always the best at interacting with people face to face and usually need time to process everything. My dad can walk into a place, tell the salesman what he's looking for, listen to the salesman's advice about what he thinks would be best, and then drop $600 on a fridge, washing machine, whatever based on that advice. My brain simply doesn't work that way. It's very rare that I can just take and follow someone's advice without doing my own research, and usually a lot of it. It also makes me feel like a dick to listen to someone's knowledgeable advice and then do something completely different. No such qualms when it comes to internet research. So for my own mental health I'm usually better off doing my own research online and usually that research leads me to a small cottage manufacturer that only sells online. Many times I feel better about ordering something online from a cottage builder than from one of the big manufacturers at a brick and mortar store. Or, in the case of CCS, much of their gear is stocked at Midwest Mountaineering so it's a win-win.

But if I do get good advice from a brick and mortar store you can bet that I'll do everything I can to buy that product from them even if it is higher priced (most of the time it's not). Nor will I go into a brick and mortar store to look and handle something personally (stoves) or try something on (PFD) only to buy it online for less money somewhere else.

Alan
 
Unfortunately the outdoor stores in Winnipeg just don't seem to stock much of what I want. I dropped into Wilderness Supply yesterday (had to drop some water samples at the lab just down the road). They have a good range of stuff, but nothing special and I never find the staff very inspiring. I have the same problem with MEC, it looks like a big store but increasingly I find that it doesn't stock a lot of the good stuff on their website, instead tends to feature things I have no interest in (bikinis, yoga mats etc.)

Both stores only stock a very limited range of canoes as well so even if I were in the market for a new boat I wouldn't have the chance of seeing one let alone going for a test paddle in one of the more interesting designs. There is a Clipper dealer in town now so at least that is another option, although, again he only has a limited range of boats, probably reflecting what he is most likely to sell.
 
For me, it has never really been a dilemma. I have always tried to support the locally owned shops ( outdoor, paddle, ski and bike) because they have supported the sport in the area. This support comes in the form of product discounts, being instrumental in the clubs and events, and acting as sources of information for locals and visitors.
 
I think internet sales has a good deal to do with the decline of paddle sports brick and mortar stores.

But I don't think it is all on the consumer's shoulders either. As a case in point, consider the "outfitter's store" at the Nanatahla Outdoor Center. There was a time when you could walk into that store back in the 1980s and early 1990s and find absolutely anything that pertained to outfitting a canoe or kayak including duct tape and nylon accessory cord in 47 different colors.

Last year I walked in there to try to find a tube of Aquaseal. Not only was there none to be found, but the person at the counter had never heard of it. These days the so-called "outfitter's store" would prefer to sell high profit items like coffee cups, key fobs, sunglass retainer straps, and t-shirts to their rafting clientele or the sightseers that get off the Great Smoky Mountains Railroad excursion train. The NOC"outfitter's store" in Gatlinburg is even worse. When I was there a few years ago I found that not a single canoe or kayak paddle was available for purchase there.

It is costly for a small paddlesports store to house an inventory of canoes and kayaks. If a model does not sell, they sometimes have to sell it off at cost several years later as a discontinued model.

In years past, I was heavily into bicycling and knew a few owners of bike shops. They basically all told me the same thing. They were lucky to break even on sales of the actual bikes when inventory storage costs were taken into the equation. They made money on sales of the peripherals: accessories, racks, parts, service, and especially clothing.
 
I always shop with the little guys first, it is the only way to keep them in business in the longer run. I may pay more but what is the fuel cost to run into the city vs keeping it local? I always go to Wilderness Supply on Ferry Road in Winnipeg first. They are right around the corner from work, they know my name, we have a good relationship, they are always helpful and get what I need when I need it. I give them business, they get me some when they can. I have posted adds for canoes for sale in their store and the present repair work was a reference from them.

Personally, I haven't been in a Wally Mart in over 3 years and hope to make it a long term thing. I'm the little guy too, so anything I can do to help is just what I do.
 
Often these internet dealers ARE small brick and mortar shops, just in another province or state. I just bought some stuff from one in Minnesota because I couldn't find what I was looking for here in Winnipeg for reasons stated above. From a canoeist perspective, a lot of the stuff we buy is rather specific and specialty anyway, likely make by a few small manufacturers. I have never seen a good canoe paddle made in China.

I have no issue with internet purchasing. Like Alan stated above, I prefer to do the research myself and then order the item rather than have to go talk to a person. For the same reason I use the self-checkout lane at Safeway. Introvert, I guess :)
 
I am fortunate enough to have one of the best specialty shops in the northeast a mile from my house.
Adirondack Paddle'n'Pole, has a large selection of quality boats and gear. Since I build my own boats and paddles, I rarely buy from Rich (proprietor) but I do know him personally and refer many people to him. We have exchanged trip ideas and stories, and his blog and website encourages people to get out and paddle. He also teaches paddling technique and leads group trips.

The passion and commitment and obvious love of the outdoors cannot be replaced by the internet...I hope he stays in business forever!
 
As much as I am loath to admit to the underlying idea, capitalistic economies are not driven by altruistic tendencies. They are driven by profit. (Which is in turn driven by the need to maintain investments, or a position in the "capitalist class," or simply the drive to survive, however you want to see it.) As much as we might like to trick ourselves into believing otherwise, those brick and mortar stores do not exist to satisfy your various physical or consumer needs (or to funnel money back into your community). Those stores exist to make a profit, even to the point of "manipulating consumers," as some nay sayers like to believe. They have no choice.

To pacify the uncomfortable sight of ma and pa losing all their capital investment and closing their doors, we like to say that this system "frees ma and pa up" to pursue other ventures that will, in the end, benefit consumers and society as a whole. Okay. I suppose every now and again this happens. Most of the time it's just sad.

Sometimes they don't fold: My brick and mortar store--a store from the early 80's started by "no shuttle" Bob Taylor--is an hour away and is quite renowned and has adapted and grown both physically and cybernetically such that they now have the capital to act like Walmart and do things like buy Liquid Logic's entire inventory and sell brand new whitewater kayaks for $600 a pop and still profit (probably $800 now, I haven't bought a ww kayak in a number of years). The result is that when I walk in to buy my ONE canoe for as cheaply as I can get it, the company could care less. They're too busy loading a tractor trailer of thirty boats for ANOTHER ma and pa store in Minnesota, or wrapping a boat for shipping across the country to Oregon. They're too busy generating revenue of $15,000 to worry about the $500 I might generate. Of course, I don't care because, like Alan, I know what I want when I walk in and I don't need to talk to Brian, Tom, or Bob. Most of the time I'm just there to wander the warehouse in a sort of stupor, play with boats and try to get a free hat.
 
Jersey Paddler had to go under as the creditor list was long and the assets not enough. Doesn't matter if its mom and pop the bills have to be paid and the business model has to work. They had some competition with what they were selling and were not a niche store.Plus internet sales were about non existent.
Its been a long time since I bought a large item from any paddlesports shop. I have bought from canoe works, which are different. Placid just recently opened a showroom and Colden is in a barn. Cooke Custom Sewing is two people in a house. Quimby Paddles and Dog Paddles in a workshop. Hemlock is at their house. Frankly stores dont often have what I want. I need to custom order. My next tarp will be of a specific construct and color pattern and not available in any store.

I will occasionally buy from BMO ( fuel and gloves,insect repellent.. that sort of stuff.. sometimes rope) and also LLBean.. fuel maybe a headlamp.(the former on my way to a destination, the latter half an hour from my house). But not big ticket items like canoes paddles spray skirts etc.

Some have websites and some operate word of mouth as that is what they have designed in their business model and they want only custom work on order.

Self serve lanes are a pox.. One of our stores at home abandoned them as people refused to use them. Their neighbors were often the checkout clerks.
 
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"But if I do get good advice from a brick and mortar store you can bet that I'll do everything I can to buy that product from them even if it is higher priced (most of the time it's not). Nor will I go into a brick and mortar store to look and handle something personally (stoves) or try something on (PFD) only to buy it online for less money somewhere else."

What Alan said.

I live just far enough away from any major retailer that I'll do my research ahead of time. But, if I find myself in a large retail store (I'm just over an hour away from Albany, NY) and have gotten good service/information, I'm definitely inclined to purchase from there. Personally, I really dislike the "customer" who comes into the shop, picks the brain of the staff, test paddles boats (or whatever) and then hits the web because they can find it for less money. There are already too few retail stores where you can purchase quality gear as it is. If the trend of "store research, web purchase" continues, it won't be long before the remaining stores close up shop and shutter their doors.

Just my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.

Until next time...be well.

snapper
 
I'm still old school, I like to touch and handle before I buy. I have limited funds so it helps to not just order something online I can only see. Even a $80 paddle is a big ticket item and I can check out each one for quality before buying.

Considering we have a PO Box out here, many companies will only ship to a proper address thus we cannot get stuff that way either. Eventually the postal system will shutter the actual offices and everyone will need to go UPS, FedEx or whatever and pony up even more money.

The interaction I have with store employees is about my entire social life, ha ha.
 
I encounter a crisis of conscience whenever I'm met with the decision to choose between local and distant, internet and bricks & mortar, mom & pop and franchise; but my conscience isn't all that troubled. At the end of the day I need to take care of my own finances as much as anyone else's. I've often chosen local mom & pop bricks & mortar, and paid more for that fairly happily, but not always. I've been ripped off. If I had deeper pockets the decision might be easier, but they aren't so it isn't. I need to be convinced I'm receiving some kind of value for my hard earned dollar, whether that is in quality of product or service, or investment in small scale businesses. But the local/family/small scale/greener/kinder gentler retailer can also be a marketing ploy. Decisions decisions.
 
BMO has a lively shuttle trip service that cannot be duplicated on the internet. I suspect it is that part of the business that props up the rest of it.

Most of the time, I will buy from independent brick-and-mortar retailers even though I am aware that I could probably buy most any item cheaper somewhere else on the internet with a bit of searching. It’s not that I want to do my part to help keep them in business so I can continue to utilize them. It’s just me rebelling in my own small way against the depersonalization of our society and the destruction of local communities. I am blessed to have the luxury of taking my personal outlook into consideration in my buying decisions, with relatively little sacrifice. Many do not have that luxury.

Last time I stopped in at Raquette River Outfitters, a year or two ago, I was pleasantly surprised at the inventory of paddling accessories and do-dads. It was a slow day for them, I was in no hurry, we chatted, and it was a great experience. I dropped some significant cash. Sadly, such experiences are rare these days.

I buy canoes used [Doh. I forgot that I did buy several new RX canoes decades ago]. There is a great selection out there if one is a bit patient and does not need the latest thing. But, I also buy used cars and other used high-ticket items.The depreciation off the lot is too much or my el cheapo self to handle, and I am not too picky about color, etc. No ethical pangs in this regard. I could see myself ordering a Millbrook, or buying a new Swift, one of these days, but, to justify it, I would need to find more time to do way more paddling.
 
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Surely there is something I dont know I need for an upcoming trip and am 12 miles from St Regis Outfitters in Saranac Lake. Thats where brick and mortar gets me.. after I buy a handmade something from a wood artisan here at Assembly.

such as a 200 dollar paddle that I dont need....
 
I always go to Wilderness Supply on Ferry Road in Winnipeg first. They are right around the corner from work, they know my name, we have a good relationship, they are always helpful and get what I need when I need it. I give them business, they get me some when they can.

.

Glad you have had some joy with W.S. I have had orders come in but they never phoned to let me know or records lost so that stuff was waiting but they wouldn't let me have it because my name wasn't on it. Plus little things bug me. They only had one pair of rain pants on the rack yesterday. A couple of weeks back I needed some guy lines for a trap I was making for a friend. Nope don't stock that.

I do like to browse and will certainly continue to shop there but the more I know what I need the less patience I have for a lot of the fluff that fills the shelf space between the good stuff.
 
BMO has a lively shuttle trip service that cannot be duplicated on the internet. I suspect it is that part of the business that props up the rest of it.

Part of the allure of BMO for my DIY needs is that they carry everything; fiberglass, dynel, minicel, resins & adhesives, rope, bungee and every imaginable buckle, clip or connector doohickie. Seats, yokes and thwarts. How many outfitters carry a variety of replacement gunwales and deck plates?

Another strong part of the business is the outstanding repair and outfitting done in their on-premises shop. Gunwale replacement, hull cracks repaired, Mikey Yee style WW outfitting and I believe BMO is the only trained and authorized Twintex repairer in the US.

BMO’s outfitting and repairs guy Kris has mad freaking skills and knowledge. Catching Kris when he had time to talk has been an education.




Last time I stopped in at Raquette River Outfitters, a year or two ago, I was pleasantly surprised at the inventory of paddling accessories and do-dads. It was a slow day for them, I was in no hurry, we chatted, and it was a great experience. I dropped some significant cash. Sadly, such experiences are rare these days.

I will stop at Raquette next time I’m in the area. I have stopped at Mountain Man a couple of times and found they had a good stock of paddles, pfd’s and tripping gear, but I never got much warmth or feedback from the staff. I don’t mean to diss an outfitter, and maybe it was me, but they were not busy and still kind of aloof, like I needed to pull out my Paddler Passport or produce my bona fides before I was taken seriously.

I gritted my teeth and bought a new PFD for my wife, who needed one for that trip. The second visit we were looking for new paddles for my sons and walk out empty handed with the cash in my wallet after a few minutes of too-cool-for-you. Well yes, I guess not, eh?

BMO has certainly sunk a lot of money into keeping a vast and complete stock of stuff like paddles and PFD’s. I don’t really need any more of that kind of gear, although I have occasionally left with a new paddle. What I enjoy most is that the BMO folks are nice people, with a good sense of humor, and they are all die hard paddlers who know their stuff.

I try to time my BMO visits for the slow times; off season or middle of the day + middle of the week. The shuttle and livery business requires a lot of personal staff time and client interaction during the fair-weather months, and I try not to pester the staff when they are busy. I’m not going to ask them to go into the shop and cut me a yard of fiberglass or peel ply or go down in the basement for $10 worth of minicel when they are swarmed.

But when things are slow I relish chatting with the owners and staff. I always come away having learned something new, whether a new repair or outfitting trick or current info about what is new in the canoe world.

Nor will I go into a brick and mortar store to look and handle something personally (stoves) or try something on (PFD) only to buy it online for less money somewhere else."

Personally, I really dislike the "customer" who comes into the shop, picks the brain of the staff, test paddles boats (or whatever) and then hits the web because they can find it for less money.

That is especially egregious behavior. My most frequent paddling companion ran an outfitter shop, and I have other friends in that retail business. They would use a stronger term than “dislike” and have developed a radar to detect such customers. Don’t be that a$$hat.

Here’s a new wrinkle in outfitter shop business models. I contacted Harmony last week looking for a replacement part. I called the Customer Service 866 number on Harmony’s web site and heard “Hello, you have reached Austin Canoe and Kayak”.

AC&K already had a vigorous on-line presence, and it makes sense for a corporate manufacturer to outsource questions about repair parts and pieces.
 
Glad you have had some joy with W.S. I have had orders come in but they never phoned to let me know or records lost so that stuff was waiting but they wouldn't let me have it because my name wasn't on it. Plus little things bug me. They only had one pair of rain pants on the rack yesterday. A couple of weeks back I needed some guy lines for a trap I was making for a friend. Nope don't stock that.

I do like to browse and will certainly continue to shop there but the more I know what I need the less patience I have for a lot of the fluff that fills the shelf space between the good stuff.

Perhaps it is just me. I am exceedingly patient and have waited 20 minutes to be served at times. I just look around after making eye contact so they know I am seeking assistance. I have a friend at work who has been going there and never has had a good experience and has given up on them. I do realize they have moved more to the clothing end of things much like MEC has as that accounts for more sales nowadays. They do however rent canoes and sell more yaks than canoes. They also have pool nights and classes so there is more offered than just the store stuff. I have noticed a more affluent crowd when I have been there, the type that doesn't flinch when buying all the Thule stuff recommended.

Maybe the convenience of it being only a few minutes from work and the fact I won't go downtown to MEC is influencing me as well.
 
Yellowcanoe, say hi to my daughter Sarah for me.
How is the assembly going? The WCHA site is silent.
Jim
Ok I'll look for Sarahs. Weather was hot stormy downpours and today more wind. But we are doing instruction anyway !
8 great paddlers out in two foot seas working on the Northwoods stroke and I got to paddle a birchbark in high wind. !
 
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