Canoe seats

[Guest]

I can attest that the Conk seat is like no other in terms of thoughtful design and build quality.

The design, contoured and sloped front edge with straight back edge seems DUH-obvious, but it took hundreds of years of canoe building for someone to envision it and build it correctly; laminated frame, proper joints, stretched poly webbing and three coats of quality varnish.

I haven’t rebuilt a canoe in a while, but the next one gets a Conk seat.

 

[gumpus]

Well recped one comment I'll make is that the Ed's seats have thicker seat frames than some (most?) stock seats like the ones that came on Bells so they do add a little weight but I was surprised that they also stiffened up the seating position noticeably. I think the black walnut webbed seat from Ed's added about 2 pounds to my Merlin II.



As far as which Conk seat is best for you I'll defer to Conk!

Even more expensive is the Hemlock seat...another one I'd like to try. I think the ability to adjust the seat fore/aft is a big feature...at least for me.

http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/hemlock-seat.html

 

[Jim Dodd]

For those of us, unfamiliar with the "Conk seat," maybe someone could post a pic ?

Jim

 

[stevet]

 

[Guest]

Conk builds great seats. he is a craftsman

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Cane sucks. First it sags and you're just sitting on the wood frame. Then it tears completely. I've never had a failure with a webbing seat. As long as it's polypropylene or polyester (not nylon) it won't sag.

The most comfortable wood seat for kneeling and and occasional sitting is the Conk/Hemlock seat because of the multiple curves and rounding of the front edge, and the lamination give it a higher strength-to-weight ratio than solid wood seats. I own two Conks of different front-to-back depths. The curved Swift seat is also more comfortable than flat seats or the Ed's contour seat -- for on both of those a kneeler still ends up with butt against the sharp front edge.

Wide central seats are preferable if you like to shift weight from side-to-side for comfort or hull heeling.

If you are purely a sitter, a full bucket seat with a foot bar will be the most comfortable and propulsionally efficient. All flatwater racers use them.

Hemlock's Harold Deal bucket seat is a hybrid that is contoured for both sitters and kneelers. It's not quite as comfortable as a Conk seat for kneeling, but is much more comfortable than a flat seat or Ed's seat, and is more comfortable than the Conk for sitting, though not as comfortable as full size racing bucket seat. I use both a Deal bucket and Conk wood seat in my Hemlock SRT adjustable drop frame.

Here's a picture (via Conk) of a Deal bucket seat lined with sleeping pad foam and a short depth, wide beam Conk seat:

 

[Iskweo]

We have taken to building our seat frames from laminate also...I agree that they are stonger and lighter than a single piece of stock. No issues with breaking at weak spots and you can play around with different contours etc. I have been using plain old cordura strapping, but then again, they are for my own use, not as a for sale item.

With all of the improvements in hull design and materials, seats seem to have lagged far behind on most production canoes.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Wow, Jim, those are awesome. I have no will or skill to build, but I'd sure like to own a stripper. Never had one.

Are those hulls akin to any commercially available that we would know, or are they custom designs? I'm especially attracted to the plan view of the second from left because the fullness in the ends looks as if it could be a decent river wave solo, as long as it has some rocker, while still being narrow enough for flat water efficiency. If it has no rocker, then I won't steal it.

 

[Guest]

Wide central seats are preferable if you like to shift weight from side-to-side for comfort or hull heeling.

If you are purely a sitter, a full bucket seat with a foot bar will be the most comfortable and propulsionally efficient.

I like a wider solo seat for my wider butt. And for shifting my weight to the side, pure sitters aren’t statues. But do find a full bucket comfortable in some boats, especially as Glenn shows with some Ridgerest pad glued to the seat pan.

But I have a couple of niggling issues with bucket seats. First, it needs to be a “full” bucket seat pan. Not some little twiggy sized mini pan (see fat arse above)

Second, especially with a larger pan, the seat may need to be positioned ever so slightly canted, or the bottom of my thighs will rest uncomfortably at the seat’s front edge. That is usually not a problem with something like Wenonah’s larger bucket seat, at least in an open canoe. Definitely an issue for me in decked canoes, with a lower seat height and feet on side rudder pedals that little cant on the bucket is mandatory, probably for endomorph ergonomic reasons.

Third, a Catch-22. On a fixed bench seat I can shift my weight not only to the side, but, more often, a bit aft or forward for some instant, on the fly trim adjustment. Can’t do that with a bucket unless it’s a slider. The Catch-22 is that I do not like sliding seats, and on “adjustable” bench seats I’m sure not taking off wingnuts and moving the seat on the fly, or even every morning when I have a look at the wind and weather.

We have bucket seats in all of our decked canoes. And webbed bench seats, contour or wide and slightly canted, in nearly all of our open canoes. If I were rebuilding another canoe I’d use a wide or contour bench again, installed at my preferred “solo” location and desired truss drop depth.

And maybe ask Ed’s to build me one 14 inches deep, instead of 11 or 12.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Now Mike, you quibble with one adjectival couplet in one of my sentences regarding bucket seats plus foot bars -- "most comfortable" -- while ignoring the linked adjectival triplet -- "most . . . propulsionally efficient." But that's okay, since neither you nor I -- lazing floaters and gunkholers that we oft tend to be -- are concerned with maximal propulsion efficiency. That was just sop for the racing aficionados and hut-hut addicts.

Is it not somewhat fair to say that you are rarely satisfied with off-the-shelf canoe stuff? You twiddle, diddle and fiddle with all sorts of things, tweaking them to your own dimensions, standards and opinions of functionality? I recall that at least one of your decked solos has a veritable "throne" for a seat, replete with baroque backband, plush seat cushions, foam blocks, hooks, buckles, et alia -- not to mention a nearby doodadded utility thwart and retractable portage strap. Or is my failing memory deceiving me?

Anyway, the point I think both of us were making in different ways is that one should not skimp or scrimp on seat comfort. IT'S THE ONE dang PART OF THE dang CANOE THAT YOUR DECREPITATING MORTAL BODY IS IN CONTACT WITH ALL THE TIME. Phooey on decks or rub strips or skid plates, if necessary. Spend money to buy, build or tweak a seat that is maximally comfortable as well as functional.

Your trip will only be as successful as your arse is comfortable.

 

[Guest]

Now Mike, you quibble with one adjectival couplet in one of my sentences regarding bucket seats plus foot bars -- "most comfortable" -- while ignoring the linked adjectival triplet -- "most . . . propulsionally efficient." But that's okay, since neither you nor I -- lazing floaters and gunkholers that we oft tend to be -- are concerned with maximal propulsion efficiency. That was just sop for the racing aficionados and hut-hut addicts.

Please note that Glenn expended 73 words, and considerable vocabulary, to say “Neither you or I are racers”. But I have been known to quibble with Glenn.

Is it not somewhat fair to say that you are rarely satisfied with off-the-shelf canoe stuff? You twiddle, diddle and fiddle with all sorts of things, tweaking them to your own dimensions, standards and opinions of functionality? I recall that at least one of your decked solos has a veritable "throne" for a seat, replete with baroque backband, plush seat cushions, foam blocks, hooks, buckles, et alia -- not to mention a nearby doodadded utility thwart and retractable portage strap. Or is my failing memory deceiving me?

Your memory may be failing you about tractor maintenance schedules and where you last put your Silky Saws, but you are spot on about the seats in our boats. Although I have twiddled, diddled and fiddled with every seat, in every boat, to get it just-so comfort wise.

Not just “at least one decked solo”. Every canoe, open or decked hull, has some version of a veritable plush throne, with seat pad, pad keeper straps, minicel knee bumpers below the inwales, back band pad eye attachments to oppose a foot brace or rudder pedals, utility thwart and strap yoke. Worth every ounce (and it is ounces) to me in outfitting for comfort and convenience.

I would like to see how “lightly” I could outfit a rebuild kev composite solo or soloized tandem, paying attention to aspects of rebuild weight this time. (And, hopefully, remember to weight it before I started gutting it this time)

Anyway, the point I think both of us were making in different ways is that one should not skimp or scrimp on seat comfort. IT'S THE ONE dang PART OF THE dang CANOE THAT YOUR DECREPITATING MORTAL BODY IS IN CONTACT WITH ALL THE TIME. Phooey on decks or rub strips or skid plates, if necessary. Spend money to buy, build or tweak a seat that is maximally comfortable as well as functional.

Your trip will only be as successful as your arse is comfortable.

Aside from the “phooey” on 2oz Dynel skid plates – and I am hereby offering to install Dynel skid plates on your boat of choice, I’ll even do the all the epoxy work while you sit and watch - Abso-freaking-lutely. Racers and marathon paddlers have that paddling comfort intention right, although they are more willing to suffer than I.

I’ve said it before, and will say it again; my boat should be the most comfortable seat in the house. Everyone’s arse, paddling style and physiological ergonomics are different, but there is no reason to sit on a seat that becomes uncomfortable. Shouldn’t happen and doesn’t need to.

And again, when we stop on group trip for bankside leg-stretcher muckles, I usually take a leak, wander around to see if anyone offers me a beer, and then have a seat back in the Barcalounger boat (everything I need within arm’s reach), until my seat suffering companion asses are ready to push off again, enduring more discomfort.

Or often before they are ready to go. Pushing off the bank, gently nudging them that the day is running late, “OK, I’ll wait up for y’all in the next eddy downstream”. I have waited a long time, and didn’t mind. Take your sore-arse time; I’m blessedly all by my lonesome again, quietly watching and listening again in solitude and comfort.

I have attained back upstream. More than once. From the freaking put in one time, after spending 30 minutes waiting downstream in an eddy, attained back up to ask “WTF is going on up here?

It was DougD, CWDH Tom and Tom’s mysteriously vanished van key. No one but Tom would have a wee perfect hole in his dry pants pocket, and eventually find his van key, slid all the way down his pant leg into his Mukluks. Yes, we had to take Tom’s boots off to find the hidden key.

That DougD’s searching idea, but he has a wrinkly foot fetish, and I was unconvinced of his intentions until the key discovery was made.

Seriously, if your canoe seat isn’t uber-comfy for hours on end, something needs fixing. And that is often just a minor tweak of cushion or cant angle.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Wow, Jim, those are awesome. I have no will or skill to build, but I'd sure like to own a stripper. Never had one.

Are those hulls akin to any commercially available that we would know, or are they custom designs? I'm especially attracted to the plan view of the second from left because the fullness in the ends looks as if it could be a decent river wave solo, as long as it has some rocker, while still being narrow enough for flat water efficiency. If it has no rocker, then I won't steal it.

Thanks Glenn !

Ever since I test paddled a friends Bell Magic ? I've lusted after a tumblehomed hull ! Really a Magic ! I couldn't afford one !

Both Bruce Kunz , and Bob Brown entered my life via the Minnesota Canoe Association.

I had built Bob's Pirate. I thought If I would add Tumblhome and rockered the stems a little, I'd have what I wanted ! Bruce enters the picture with his tumblehomed Merlin. With both sets of plans one over laying the other, I devised Pearl. Pirate and Merlin = Pearl.

Pearl is the hull, second hull from the left, and my favorite solo to date.

I stretched it to use every inch of a 16' 2" W R Cedar strip. I had to cheat a little but it ended up to 15'11"

I graphited the hull. Maybe that has something to do with it, but it is fast and the most responsive hull I have.

There are hulls out there that to me handle quite similar.

Pearl isn't a copy of anything else out there.

No Hull Rocker, the stems are rockered, as compared to what both Bruce and Bob originally in their hulls.

Jim

 

[Guest]

As a geezer with worsening AMSPS (old man skinny butt syndrome), I have gotten real sensitive to seat comfort. To make canoe seat preference more difficult, I need both kneeling and sitting comfort. The Swift design with contoured and canted front crosspiece and a contoured rear piece comes the closest I have found to most comfortable. All my solos have one.

 

[ShawnD]

worsening AMSPS (old man skinny butt syndrome), I have gotten real sensitive to seat comfort..

This.

Have added these to every one of my seats.

https://kondosoutdoors.com/products/canoe-seat-cushion/

 

[Guest]

Have added these to every one of my seats.

https://kondosoutdoors.com/products/canoe-seat-cushion/

I have tried a variety of seat pads. In a bucket seat nothing comes close to some waffled Ridge-rest glued in place.

That same Ridge-rest pad, cut rectangular and held in place under a couple of loose straps, is pretty dang comfy on bench seats. This would definitely leave some crosshatch on the arse.

P7140011 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Much better, cut frame wide I can slide over almost to the inwale.

P7140013 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

But, butt-wise, on a bench seat, especially a flat bench seat, a mostly deflated Therma-rest “Trail Pad” works like nothing else for my derriere.

P2160536 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

“Mostly deflated” is key. With the pad wrapped around the front seat edge, held under the straps for kneeling comfort, as soon as I hit the seat I reach back and open the valve to let air out, until I have good sitz-bones contact with the seat.

A fully inflated pad is like paddling seated on a bouncy castle, but the mostly deflated pad curls up around the edges of my arse much like a bucket seat. And it still has enough air in it that I can simply reach back and let a little more out after an hour, and a little more after that until it is nearly flat, changing pressure points on my body.

On long days I can take a leg stretcher, open the valve to re-inflate and start the process over.

I think those Therma-rest Trail Pads or Stadium Pads are now, like a lot of once value-priced gear, discontinued, or at best now leftover stock NIB spendy. There are other self-inflating seat pads, YMMV.

 

[recped]

As part of my seat padding I have used this:

https://skwoosh.com/canoe-pad-with-breathable-mesh/

It's a gel-filled pad which helps when added to the top of my "sear sandwich" (one piece of low density foam, one piece of medium density foam with the Swoosh on top.

I tried using those thermarest mini-pads but for some reason I kept getting pinholes, odd because I've used regular thermarest pads for years and other than burn holes I've never had any issues even when I was using them with the chair kit on very rough ground.

 

[Guest]

I tried using those thermarest mini-pads but for some reason I kept getting pinholes, odd because I've used regular thermarest pads for years and other than burn holes I've never had any issues even when I was using them with the chair kit on very rough ground.

Thermarest changed the cover material on those pads when the name changed from “Trail Pad” to “Stadium Pad”. The original Trail Pads we use in our canoes are at least 15 years old, no holes or leaks so far.

Everything I see in a self-inflating seat pad today has “Lite” in the name. No thanks; I’ll take a piece of Ridgerest pad, cut seat frame wide and extra long so it can wrap around the front edge of the seat. Held in place under the two loosely installed straps it doesn’t shift, or blow away in the wind when unoccupied.