Blue Steel Layup Inspection / Repair Advice

[Tryin']

Thanks for looking in. I will be picking up a Nova Craft SuperNova next week. It is in their Blue Steel layup, which is a combination of Kevlar, carbon, and polypropylene. I believe this may be my ideal boat, a reasonably light solo river tripper for a very substantial man.

I am buying used, and she shows a few handling marks. I have been in a lengthy chat with the seller and have received a good number of pictures. He says that there are no soft spots, and no fabric is showing in any of the scratches.

I am hoping that someone here is more familiar with the layup and can identify any problem areas that will warrant additional scrutiny at pickup.

I have done some fiberglass canoe repairs, but other than the one boat, all of my canoes have been Royalex or poly. I'm not scared to take on a project, I just want a second opinion on what I might be getting into.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[sailsman63]

Crickets? Well... I've never worked with this stuff, so please take what I say with an appropriate level of seasoning.

• I'm not too worried about the scuffs - though they appear to be more than handling marks! Scuffs in the gelcoat will probably buff out, or can be filled and buffed with some clear gelcoat. Even if one does reach down to the fiber, it's recoverable.
• Those Centipede-things of discoloration, on the other hand... It looks like it got bonked pretty good. The discoloration appears from here to be the fiber pulling away from the gelcoat, leaving a void. Might want to check if there is any tendency for the hull to fold or crease at those points when you press from the outside. Use the heel of your hand and lean into it a bit.
• Also take a close look at any points where the fiber layup changes color/sheen on the inside. I'm particularly looking at those two horizontal lines upper left of the first inside picture, right up against the bulkhead seam. This appears to be coincident with the particularly deep scratches on the outside stem, first picture after the inside ones. Again, check if it wants to fold, and check if that bulkhead seam has been damaged.

 

[memaquay]

I agree with everything Sailsman has said. I've never actually seen a blue steel layup before, but I would probably treat it like any other composite layup. Personally, I would just use it the way it is. If there are no corresponding lines or weaknesses showing on the inner hull from those spidery/centipede marks, it should be good to go. If there are internal weaknesses or cracks that correspond, I would do inside and outside patches with cloth and expoxy.

I'm curious about the weight of that canoe, I was under the impression that the Supernova was pretty much always a royalex boat.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I agree with everything Sailsman has said. I've never actually seen a blue steel layup before, but I would probably treat it like any other composite layup. Personally, I would just use it the way it is. If there are no corresponding lines or weaknesses showing on the inner hull from those spidery/centipede marks, it should be good to go. If there are internal weaknesses or cracks that correspond, I would do inside and outside patches with cloth and expoxy.

I agree with every sentence @memaquay wrote.

 

[Sweetfancymoses]

I have a Bobs Special in BlueSteel. I've never seen a layup that scratches so easily. The contrast between white scratches on a black surface doesn't help. I called Nova Craft about a good way to refinish it, but got zero advice/help from them. I used G-Flex where fabric was exposed and just lived with it. The workmanship in general is subpar as evidenced by the frayed fabric edges. If anything, you should be able to negotiate a substantial discount.

 

[Tryin']

Crickets? Well... I've never worked with this stuff, so please take what I say with an appropriate level of seasoning.

• I'm not too worried about the scuffs - though they appear to be more than handling marks! Scuffs in the gelcoat will probably buff out, or can be filled and buffed with some clear gelcoat. Even if one does reach down to the fiber, it's recoverable.
• Those Centipede-things of discoloration, on the other hand... It looks like it got bonked pretty good. The discoloration appears from here to be the fiber pulling away from the gelcoat, leaving a void. Might want to check if there is any tendency for the hull to fold or crease at those points when you press from the outside. Use the heel of your hand and lean into it a bit.
• Also take a close look at any points where the fiber layup changes color/sheen on the inside. I'm particularly looking at those two horizontal lines upper left of the first inside picture, right up against the bulkhead seam. This appears to be coincident with the particularly deep scratches on the outside stem, first picture after the inside ones. Again, check if it wants to fold, and check if that bulkhead seam has been damaged.

Good advice, thank you. You are the second person to advise that the "spiders" are from fabric strands delaminating from the gel coat. It makes sense. I will be very thorough in checking the hull integrity. Good eye on that inside pic, I had not noticed that before.

I agree with everything Sailsman has said. I've never actually seen a blue steel layup before, but I would probably treat it like any other composite layup. Personally, I would just use it the way it is. If there are no corresponding lines or weaknesses showing on the inner hull from those spidery/centipede marks, it should be good to go. If there are internal weaknesses or cracks that correspond, I would do inside and outside patches with cloth and expoxy.

I'm curious about the weight of that canoe, I was under the impression that the Supernova was pretty much always a royalex boat.

Looking over all the photos, I don't see any matching lines inside and out, apart from the bow pic noted above, but it's hard for me to tell from pictures. I'm hoping for sub-50 pounds. I think advertised weight was 47 lbs. That's probably with aluminum gunnels. They now only offer the craft in TuffStuff Expedition. I'm not planning to bash with it, hopefully that will make up for the more delicate nature of the layup.

I agree with every sentence @memaquay wrote.

Glad to see there is such consensus!

I have a Bobs Special in BlueSteel. I've never seen a layup that scratches so easily. The contrast between white scratches on a black surface doesn't help. I called Nova Craft about a good way to refinish it, but got zero advice/help from them. I used G-Flex where fabric was exposed and just lived with it. The workmanship in general is subpar as evidenced by the frayed fabric edges. If anything, you should be able to negotiate a substantial discount.

The color sure doesn't do it any favors with scratching. The workmanship definitely isn't Swift, but is hopefully as good as the last offering I looked at from Northstar. Not bashing them at all, just a manufacturer known for similar finishes. I'm on track to pay 25% of new, which is a good bit cheaper than I've seen with other composites in similar condition. Fair deal?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'm on track to pay 25% of new, which is a good bit cheaper than I've seen with other composites in similar condition. Fair deal?

Sounds very good to me if you are convinced a SuperNova is the canoe that you want. It's often hard to find the exact canoe you want near you on the used market, and composite prices will only be going in one direction in the future.

Some of the agreement here is that, while those centipede/spider/jellyfish wounds look kind of weird, you can probably just hop right into that canoe and use it. Worst case is some fiberglass in the future over the weird spots. Not a big deal. You may even inflict some weird spots yourself.

I say go for it if you believe the SuperNova is the canoe you want and your inspection doesn't reveal anything more major than the photos. BTW, do you have the manufacture date from the serial number? The wood looks in really good shape.

 

[memaquay]

I just looked up the price on a new tuff stuff Supernova, $4469 Can, so around $3300 US. When did the price of canoes go so haywire? Also, after some poking around, a blue steel Super Nova looks like it might weigh around 35 pounds, so there is that to consider, that's pretty light for a big solo.

 

[Tryin']

[Snip]

I say go for it if you believe the SuperNova is the canoe you want and your inspection doesn't reveal anything more major than the photos. BTW, do you have the manufacture date from the serial number? The wood looks in really good shape.

Thank you for the encouragement. It is the type of canoe that I want, I reckon I will have to see if this specific hull is my jam. It appears to be a 2004 from the HIN, which would put it in the earliest runs of this layup. The seat has been replaced at one point and will be replaced again soon after I take possession. The wood does look good, especially if 20 years old.

I just looked up the price on a new tuff stuff Supernova, $4469 Can, so around $3300 US. When did the price of canoes go so haywire? Also, after some poking around, a blue steel Super Nova looks like it might weigh around 35 pounds, so there is that to consider, that's pretty light for a big solo.

About 2019, composite prices started their meteoric rise. It looks like they have leveled off, but yeah...

35 would be crazy. I kinda hope it's not that light, as then I will have even more qualms about durability. Heavy isn't everything, but it seems that with proper layups, mo' layers; mo' forgiving.

 

[Tryin']

Well, I went and picked it up last night. No soft spots, condition as described. The "jellyfish" marks do indeed appear to be from fibers pulling away from the gel coat as a result of impact. Obviously, this shows with a clear coat, and would not with a color coat. I was very pleased with the purchase, and dreamed of putting her in the river this weekend the whole way home.

Alas, this was not to be. During the drive, the tag end of one of my tie-down straps came untied and was loose in the wind. I could not see this had occurred, as it was well dark. This would not have been an issue with my usual rack setup, but I had borrowed a friend's truck last minute due to a mechanical issue with mine, and the rack does not fit in his bed. Without the rack, the tag end is long enough to drag on the ground.

As long as I was blissfully driving down the road in forward motion, all was fine. The trouble came about when I stopped for fuel. Because of the full island, I needed to back my vehicle into a fuel stall. So, I put the truck in reverse, eased off the brake, and CRUNCH.

The rear drive tire rolled over and up the tag end of the strap, instantly maximizing its tension on the hull. The strap compressed the hull sharply, resulting in a dramatic deformation of the layup. The gel coat is splintered and flaking, the cloth is showing AND delaminating, and the damage appears on the inside of the hull as well. I'm not a composites guy, but it's the worst creasing I've seen on the few boats I've paddled.

I was sick to my stomach. Still am. What was going to be some cosmetic gel coat repair is now going to require at least two full-depth patches and the pretty blue/black and clear coat finish is an order of magnitude worse in appearance.

The boat is not destroyed, the fixes are fairly straightforward, but man..... with the price paid for the hull, the fuel and time exhausted, the repair materials cost, and the time involved there, heck, I'd probably be 3/4 of the way to a new boat. Lessons learned the hard way, I suppose.

I'm glad it was my fault, I know how upset my son would have been if it would have been the one he tied off.

Anyway, there's my vent for the day. I don't know when I will get around to making repairs. I will probably take the time to remove and refinish the gunnels, fix ALL the gel coat, add a full layer of s-glass or aramid to the interior, replace the seat, add a foot bar, and fit a removable yoke while I'm at it.

As always, I love hearing advice on how things can be done. I'm a novice at this stuff.

 

[Alan Gage]

Oh man, that's awful! What horrible luck. I can't imagine how disappointing that would be. At least it wasn't on the way to the multi-day trip.

I'm sure others will chime in with good advice but I'd be tempted to completely cut out the damaged area, feather the edges, and add a few layers of cloth to rebuild the hull to original thickness. Some thin cardboard could be fit to the inside of the hull to act as a mold for the first couple layers of cloth applied to the exterior of the hull. Once those cure the cardboard could be removed and a couple more layers applied from the inside.

Alan

 

[memaquay]

O boy, I feel your pain, that's bad luck. On the other hand, I was given a souris river quetico that had been in a car accident with a moose, it was completely folded over. I took the gunwales off and it popped back to normal form, then I added some reinforcement along the crease, new gunwales, it's still going today.

 

[BobMills]

Interesting about Memaquay's experience, I have a Souris River Prospector that was hit by a snowplow, same process, but I sort of hammered the gunwales back in shape. I did put several layers of kevlar in the midsection of the canoe and it looks good and it's strong. So Tryin' I think you can fix it, my canoe looked pretty bad and I was pretty depressed about it, but it looks good, and paddles well now.

 

[Tryin']

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! It will be an opportunity to learn some new skills, for sure. I'm trying to get Nova Craft to quote me a full-length piece of material, they only want to do up to 24" square in their repair kits. I had a very long day today, so I haven't gotten around to a full inspection yet. More to come!

 

[Woodpuppy]

I started to feel queazy when I read “The tag end…”

When it comes to straps & tie downs, I like them as short as possible after making them secure. This is why I don’t use my 25’ bow and stern lines as tie downs, and I trimmed the excess off my cam straps when I had my largest boat loaded. Incidentally, that’s where the webbing for my hood loops came from.

 

[MrPoling]

Well, I went and picked it up last night. No soft spots, condition as described. The "jellyfish" marks do indeed appear to be from fibers pulling away from the gel coat as a result of impact. Obviously, this shows with a clear coat, and would not with a color coat. I was very pleased with the purchase, and dreamed of putting her in the river this weekend the whole way home.

Alas, this was not to be. During the drive, the tag end of one of my tie-down straps came untied and was loose in the wind. I could not see this had occurred, as it was well dark. This would not have been an issue with my usual rack setup, but I had borrowed a friend's truck last minute due to a mechanical issue with mine, and the rack does not fit in his bed. Without the rack, the tag end is long enough to drag on the ground.

As long as I was blissfully driving down the road in forward motion, all was fine. The trouble came about when I stopped for fuel. Because of the full island, I needed to back my vehicle into a fuel stall. So, I put the truck in reverse, eased off the brake, and CRUNCH.

The rear drive tire rolled over and up the tag end of the strap, instantly maximizing its tension on the hull. The strap compressed the hull sharply, resulting in a dramatic deformation of the layup. The gel coat is splintered and flaking, the cloth is showing AND delaminating, and the damage appears on the inside of the hull as well. I'm not a composites guy, but it's the worst creasing I've seen on the few boats I've paddled.

I was sick to my stomach. Still am. What was going to be some cosmetic gel coat repair is now going to require at least two full-depth patches and the pretty blue/black and clear coat finish is an order of magnitude worse in appearance.

The boat is not destroyed, the fixes are fairly straightforward, but man..... with the price paid for the hull, the fuel and time exhausted, the repair materials cost, and the time involved there, heck, I'd probably be 3/4 of the way to a new boat. Lessons learned the hard way, I suppose.

I'm glad it was my fault, I know how upset my son would have been if it would have been the one he tied off.

Anyway, there's my vent for the day. I don't know when I will get around to making repairs. I will probably take the time to remove and refinish the gunnels, fix ALL the gel coat, add a full layer of s-glass or aramid to the interior, replace the seat, add a foot bar, and fit a removable yoke while I'm at it.

As always, I love hearing advice on how things can be done. I'm a novice at this stuff.

View attachment 141714

View attachment 141715

That is just rotten. What an awful feeling. Stuff happens.

The bright side is when you are done you'll have a composite that you don't worry about. I had a worn out Kevlar Mohawk that somebody had patched it up. Poorly. We took it everywhere, even bony rivers. It was wonderful, like an old ugly truck.

 

[Woodpuppy]

I had this same phenomenon with bicycles! The beaters get the most play, while the queens stay at home.

 

[Gamma1214]

Yep, I was cringing at "tag end" as well. Mr.P is probably right though... Like a new car, you baby it until it gets a few dings and then you can relax and enjoy the next 300,000 miles.

Here's hoping you get as close to that mileage as you can on the new boat.

 

[Tryin']

@sailsman63 @Alan Gage @memaquay

If you were to add a full piece of cloth to the inside of the hull, aside from any patching, would you use s-glass or aramid? What weight? Would it be worth using epoxy over vinylester?

 

[Alan Gage]

If you were to add a full piece of cloth to the inside of the hull, aside from any patching, would you use s-glass or aramid? What weight? Would it be worth using epoxy over vinylester?

I'd definitely use epoxy unless you already have vinylester (and don't have epoxy) and are comfortable using it. The epoxy will be fine over vinylester.

For the interior I'd use 6 oz fiberglass. I'd probably use 2-3 layers and each layer would be smaller than the pervious to ease the transition. I'd cover it with peel ply when done.

I would not use Kevlar because it's more difficult to use and the interior of your hull is black so it would be a big ugly yellow patch. The fiberglass will be pretty transparent and not as obvious. Of course you could paint it to match as well.

Alan