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Happy Caesar Crosses the Rubicon (49 BC)! "alea iacta est" 🎲
An open letter to the group
- Thread starter Robin
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2014
- Messages
- 364
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- 2
Christy, I hesitate to speak up in this way, but I disagree with you. Robin may own the site, but it won't last long under the despotism that your comment brings to mind. I'd say the best forums are those that have clear posting guidelines and a reasonable and consistent approach to moderation. The ones that (in my opinion) don't deserve their members are the ones who - rights or no rights - freely "take away [other people's] crayons."
My wife complained I never make her feel special, so I gave her a hockey helmut and some crayons.....Bada, bump. But seriously, try the veal.
So if I understand your last sentence, you feel Robin doesn't deserve the members on this site because he's warned another member a half dozen times not to do that? So what does that member do, post and promote something that Robin doesn't want to promote on his site and then accuses Robin of portraying her as a "money grabber" Show me in the O.P. where Robin accuses her of being a " money grabber"
Robin,
Keep following your path, you're doing fine. While I don't necessarily agree with all of your decisions, I can appreciate your focus and dedication.
I am keenly aware of your sense of fair play and unbiased memory, I'm sure everyone else notices it as well.
Just stay your course, I think this is a great site...
Keep following your path, you're doing fine. While I don't necessarily agree with all of your decisions, I can appreciate your focus and dedication.
I am keenly aware of your sense of fair play and unbiased memory, I'm sure everyone else notices it as well.
Just stay your course, I think this is a great site...
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2012
- Messages
- 838
- Reaction score
- 8
Open letter or open a can of worms?
Yellow Canoe, if you're still here, could you please avoid anything touching on the "freestyle" mess? Please?
Robin, Ushered out??? Your kidding me right?
It seems our national pass time has become being offended by each other. I see now that somebody has picked up the gauntlet of argument and is using red print!
This soap opera is combining the worst elements of cabin fever and an ingrown toenail.
You guys need to find some open water and go paddling.
And this silly thread needs to be locked, wiped, flushed.
Rob
Yellow Canoe, if you're still here, could you please avoid anything touching on the "freestyle" mess? Please?
Robin, Ushered out??? Your kidding me right?
It seems our national pass time has become being offended by each other. I see now that somebody has picked up the gauntlet of argument and is using red print!
This soap opera is combining the worst elements of cabin fever and an ingrown toenail.
You guys need to find some open water and go paddling.
And this silly thread needs to be locked, wiped, flushed.
Rob
Let's all keep in mind that while the internet opens the door to a marvelous exchange of information, the medium is a very disadvantaged form of personal communication. When we sit face to face, we can communicate in several dimensions with facial expression, hand gesture, body language, etc....and the rate of interaction is so much faster. Information passes quicker and within richer and more detailed content. Here in a 'net forum, we are limited to text and specific photos - but mostly just text. It is a very limited way to communicate, and prone to all kinds of misunderstanding. We tend to miss details or read more into what is written than what is intended. It's easy for sensibilities to be offended if we allow it. I know I'm guilty of falling into that trap a time or two.
We all share something special here that is worth guarding and nurturing - even if that means overlooking things that come across as a personal slight. Rather than escalating an argument, now that grievances have been aired, wouldn't it be best to move on and continue as friends?
Please....no response to my post here is needed. Just tthink about it.
We all share something special here that is worth guarding and nurturing - even if that means overlooking things that come across as a personal slight. Rather than escalating an argument, now that grievances have been aired, wouldn't it be best to move on and continue as friends?
Please....no response to my post here is needed. Just tthink about it.
+1 from me!
Robin, you go way beyond what anyone would expect in transparency on the way this site is administered. Too bad it raises the ire of some. Any public site on the internet is open to abuse. Even my youtube site needs some cleaning when comments are made that IMO are offensive.
Robin, I agree with all the posts that have shown their support for you. It can be a thankless job when you get people who don't agree with what you say or do. If you can please the majority of the members (which I believe you have gone way beyond that) you have done your job and should be proud of your efforts. Keep up the great work on this excellent site and you have every reason to hold your head high for your efforts.
When I joined at the beginning of the year I had no idea what all the "tension" was about regarding freestyle paddling because I had never heard of it. Yes I live a sheltered life. Canoeing to me was getting from point "A" to point "B" in what ever canoe you had, however you wanted to paddle, as long as you where happy and having fun. After searching the net, the majority of the information I was able to find surrounded one main individual. If "dancing" with a canoe to music while wearing a suit in a duck pond is your thing, all the power to you. It's certainly something you won't see me doing as I refuse to wear a suit and tie anymore
. Hearing a certain song now may just put some "old fashion canoe trippers" (who have seen the video) into therapy.
I think that a good majority of members on this site are like me, an "old fashion canoe tripper", and free style canoeing is somewhere I wouldn't want to go. Mixing canoe tripping with freestyle is like putting figure skating and ice dancing on a hockey forum because they all wear skates.
I have nothing against freestyle or the people on this site that support it. What I do have a problem with is when they attempt to change the "direction" of this forum and get all upset when they don't get their way. If they think that there is such a big following to freestyle why haven't they come up with their own website instead of trying to "hijack" yours to get their message out.
Take care Robin and you should be very proud of what you have accomplished with this site.
Perry
When I joined at the beginning of the year I had no idea what all the "tension" was about regarding freestyle paddling because I had never heard of it. Yes I live a sheltered life. Canoeing to me was getting from point "A" to point "B" in what ever canoe you had, however you wanted to paddle, as long as you where happy and having fun. After searching the net, the majority of the information I was able to find surrounded one main individual. If "dancing" with a canoe to music while wearing a suit in a duck pond is your thing, all the power to you. It's certainly something you won't see me doing as I refuse to wear a suit and tie anymore
. Hearing a certain song now may just put some "old fashion canoe trippers" (who have seen the video) into therapy.I think that a good majority of members on this site are like me, an "old fashion canoe tripper", and free style canoeing is somewhere I wouldn't want to go. Mixing canoe tripping with freestyle is like putting figure skating and ice dancing on a hockey forum because they all wear skates.
I have nothing against freestyle or the people on this site that support it. What I do have a problem with is when they attempt to change the "direction" of this forum and get all upset when they don't get their way. If they think that there is such a big following to freestyle why haven't they come up with their own website instead of trying to "hijack" yours to get their message out.
Take care Robin and you should be very proud of what you have accomplished with this site.
Perry
I have purchased a custom measured paddle from Mark thru the midwest canoe symposium and it's of the finest craftsmanship. However, I have had a few chuckles about seeing Kim renounce this site repeatedly , alas to come back and contribute.... there's no doubt about her ability and experiences in a canoe so I can understand her tangent on the why's freestyling should be discussed on this kind of forum, but , Robin, I think you've gone the extra 20 miles to give her a leash and Kim seems to pull at the end of it, making you jerk back on it. Maybe it's about spreading the word about their specific slice of the pie that canoeing encompasses. And to Perry.... There is a very nice website about freestyling that , if you would google, you could learn much about the history of canoeing from the "60's to the present, not just tripping.... If it weren't for some of those people, this sport would be much less available to us all.
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This is a very unnecessary thread in my opinion.
Particularly unfortunate is the mischaracterization of Marc Ornstein, personally, and the thread he was trying to start on functional freestyle, which is nothing more than advanced paddling technique for flat water and easy rivers. The canoe dancing to music on YouTube is a tangential hobby, in which very few functional freestyle paddlers participate, called interpretive freestyle. Roughly analogous would be the difference between learning to read and run rivers using ferries, eddy turns, peel outs and braces vs. learning how stay in one hole or on one wave to do enders, air screws, air loops, cartwheels and mystery moves.
I'm not aware of any rule on this site that prevents discussion of flat water, quiet water or white water paddling technique. If there is such a rule, I would recommend that it be published in a link to something like Site Rules, so that all current and future members have a clear understanding of that rule.
I think a rule against public b*tching about moderator/administrator decisions is eminently reasonable for any internet site, but again think it would be more effective if clearly stated in some Site Rules. Otherwise, I think complaints by members about moderation/administration should be done by PM or email. I think the same should be true about regarding complaints about individual members.
If someone should be banned, then ban them. If someone wants to quit, then quit. Speaking for myself, I really don't want to read about this kind of personal laundry in a public thread. On any site.
Particularly unfortunate is the mischaracterization of Marc Ornstein, personally, and the thread he was trying to start on functional freestyle, which is nothing more than advanced paddling technique for flat water and easy rivers. The canoe dancing to music on YouTube is a tangential hobby, in which very few functional freestyle paddlers participate, called interpretive freestyle. Roughly analogous would be the difference between learning to read and run rivers using ferries, eddy turns, peel outs and braces vs. learning how stay in one hole or on one wave to do enders, air screws, air loops, cartwheels and mystery moves.
I'm not aware of any rule on this site that prevents discussion of flat water, quiet water or white water paddling technique. If there is such a rule, I would recommend that it be published in a link to something like Site Rules, so that all current and future members have a clear understanding of that rule.
I think a rule against public b*tching about moderator/administrator decisions is eminently reasonable for any internet site, but again think it would be more effective if clearly stated in some Site Rules. Otherwise, I think complaints by members about moderation/administration should be done by PM or email. I think the same should be true about regarding complaints about individual members.
If someone should be banned, then ban them. If someone wants to quit, then quit. Speaking for myself, I really don't want to read about this kind of personal laundry in a public thread. On any site.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2014
- Messages
- 364
- Reaction score
- 2
You decidedly do NOT understand not only what I've written but other aspects of the discussion. I prefer to leave it alone at this point.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2014
- Messages
- 364
- Reaction score
- 2
Robin can ban me for what I'm about to say. If that happens, it will be a good example of what I referred to above as despotism.
When I first read the original post I was mortified. There is no reason I can think of to go after YC, or Marc, or anyone else, in such a personal, vindictive, and unprovoked way. It was utterly without either reason or redeeming value. Robin misjudged Marc's motives and castigated him for speaking up about matters that interested him - as though anyone can be criticized for not participating in discussions that don't interest them! His hard line toward YC deserves rebuttal, but I'll leave that alone; she knows it's not as Robin wrote. Such commentary is anything but fair-minded and provides an example of what people on Internet forums should avoid.
Some time ago, Robin lit out after me - I posted as Gavia then - for discussing photo editing, hardly a reason to get up in arms, especially because the person I was primarily communicating with had no issue with what I wrote. But I caught $hit because the boss was hypersensitive about something or other that never made sense to me. Since then I've seen him declare certain other subjects - freestyle being just one - as off-limits. The site owner can, of course, do as he likes, but I take a dim view of arbitrary censorship.
If anyone would like to develop a set of posting guidelines, I'd be happy to help. It's something I've done before.
What happens next is out of my hands. But I'm comfortable with having spoken the truth.
This could be my last post. Who knows? I'm not attached to the outcome. So I'll close with a wish for everyone to have bright blessings and abundant good fortune and joy in their lives.
When I first read the original post I was mortified. There is no reason I can think of to go after YC, or Marc, or anyone else, in such a personal, vindictive, and unprovoked way. It was utterly without either reason or redeeming value. Robin misjudged Marc's motives and castigated him for speaking up about matters that interested him - as though anyone can be criticized for not participating in discussions that don't interest them! His hard line toward YC deserves rebuttal, but I'll leave that alone; she knows it's not as Robin wrote. Such commentary is anything but fair-minded and provides an example of what people on Internet forums should avoid.
Some time ago, Robin lit out after me - I posted as Gavia then - for discussing photo editing, hardly a reason to get up in arms, especially because the person I was primarily communicating with had no issue with what I wrote. But I caught $hit because the boss was hypersensitive about something or other that never made sense to me. Since then I've seen him declare certain other subjects - freestyle being just one - as off-limits. The site owner can, of course, do as he likes, but I take a dim view of arbitrary censorship.
If anyone would like to develop a set of posting guidelines, I'd be happy to help. It's something I've done before.
What happens next is out of my hands. But I'm comfortable with having spoken the truth.
This could be my last post. Who knows? I'm not attached to the outcome. So I'll close with a wish for everyone to have bright blessings and abundant good fortune and joy in their lives.
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This is the friendliest uproar I have ever read online. And they say Canadians are polite. Lets talk about paddling rather than hurt feelings.
Perhaps this is a discussion that needed to happen. Philtrum makes some good points in terms of posting guidelines as I find the goal posts here rather arbitrary.
Most of my building experience has been with kayaks. My canoes are all commercial models. When I've participated in build threads here I've referenced my kayaks and posted pictures of the same. Never really thought twice about it. And then the guide boat thread got knocked for being off topic. Hmmm, thought I... I'm equally off topic.
Guide boats are out but SUPs are okay? See that's the thing - we're not solid here about what is and what isn't. If its truly open canoes only then the enforcement should be consistent.
Regarding the freestyle issue I was under the impression the problem was freestyle itself being viewed as totally irrelevant to open canoeing and tripping - a premise I disagree with but whatever. Now it seems it had more to do with the commercial intent of the original poster of the thread, an aspect I cannot speak upon. In my view freestyle techniques - not interpretive freestyle which is something of its own - are simply precision use of the paddle and the boat. Not unlike the tutorials from Bill Mason.
This is not an indictment of Robin and the site. It is simply an observation that perhaps the time has arrived for this forum to take a step towards becoming more defined. A small committee of select users headed by Robin to create a clear and cohesive set of guidelines. And perhaps an additional moderator or two that could be employed in the decision making process when there is a need to take an action within the forum activity.
Robin took the site on and we owe him for that. I'm sure it has been an incredible learning experience for him in many ways. I'm know I'm dang sure not tough enough to have done this. There is an art to running a good forum and it generally requires an assembly of good heads.
I don't think this is a discussion that should be ignored.
Pleasant waters to all of you.
Most of my building experience has been with kayaks. My canoes are all commercial models. When I've participated in build threads here I've referenced my kayaks and posted pictures of the same. Never really thought twice about it. And then the guide boat thread got knocked for being off topic. Hmmm, thought I... I'm equally off topic.
Guide boats are out but SUPs are okay? See that's the thing - we're not solid here about what is and what isn't. If its truly open canoes only then the enforcement should be consistent.
Regarding the freestyle issue I was under the impression the problem was freestyle itself being viewed as totally irrelevant to open canoeing and tripping - a premise I disagree with but whatever. Now it seems it had more to do with the commercial intent of the original poster of the thread, an aspect I cannot speak upon. In my view freestyle techniques - not interpretive freestyle which is something of its own - are simply precision use of the paddle and the boat. Not unlike the tutorials from Bill Mason.
This is not an indictment of Robin and the site. It is simply an observation that perhaps the time has arrived for this forum to take a step towards becoming more defined. A small committee of select users headed by Robin to create a clear and cohesive set of guidelines. And perhaps an additional moderator or two that could be employed in the decision making process when there is a need to take an action within the forum activity.
Robin took the site on and we owe him for that. I'm sure it has been an incredible learning experience for him in many ways. I'm know I'm dang sure not tough enough to have done this. There is an art to running a good forum and it generally requires an assembly of good heads.
I don't think this is a discussion that should be ignored.
Pleasant waters to all of you.
"What I do have a problem with is when they attempt to change the "direction" of this forum..."
This is potentially a good discussion for the site as a whole, but let's try and keep things in the realm of reality- We are talking about ONE thread.
I remember reading "Freestyle agenda" on this site...really? Is it that bad?
This is potentially a good discussion for the site as a whole, but let's try and keep things in the realm of reality- We are talking about ONE thread.
I remember reading "Freestyle agenda" on this site...really? Is it that bad?
G
Guest
Guest
I honestly am trying to stay away from this thread, but need to express my appreciation for some of the more tangential and comic threads.
I come here for a sense of brotherhood and community, a interweb campfire amongst friends not yet met if you will, and for me part of that is sometimes off topic. I am guiltier than most for sometimes wandering or posting far afield.
I have had my own minor disagreements with a few CT stalwarts, just like I would in debating some point of view around a campfire, and have poked fun a few folks I consider friends.
The functional freestyle thread didn’t bother me, even with some possible financial/commercial agenda. I didn’t read it.
I didn’t read the 400 reply response to the identical post on another board. While I admire the application of skills involved, and appreciate watching the balletic flow of interpretive canoe dance, and recognize the possible tripping applications of such exquisite paddle and boat control. . . . meh, I might watch freestyle, but dredging through hundreds of pages stroke descriptive adjectival prose would put me to sleep.
I will trust to Robin to manage things as he sees most appropriate, ‘cause I sure as hell ain’t volunteering for web duties.
I come here for a sense of brotherhood and community, a interweb campfire amongst friends not yet met if you will, and for me part of that is sometimes off topic. I am guiltier than most for sometimes wandering or posting far afield.
I have had my own minor disagreements with a few CT stalwarts, just like I would in debating some point of view around a campfire, and have poked fun a few folks I consider friends.
The functional freestyle thread didn’t bother me, even with some possible financial/commercial agenda. I didn’t read it.
I didn’t read the 400 reply response to the identical post on another board. While I admire the application of skills involved, and appreciate watching the balletic flow of interpretive canoe dance, and recognize the possible tripping applications of such exquisite paddle and boat control. . . . meh, I might watch freestyle, but dredging through hundreds of pages stroke descriptive adjectival prose would put me to sleep.
I will trust to Robin to manage things as he sees most appropriate, ‘cause I sure as hell ain’t volunteering for web duties.
Well, I kinda told a few friends I'd steer clear of this thread, but I never was all that good at direction, so here's my 2 cents.
Nobody formed a committee to rescue a paddling forum sadly set adrift by tragic circumstances. One sole person did. I have no idea why he did, perhaps he's asked himself the same question, likely during stormy sessions of barbed banter. In any case, Robin did rescue this forum, and has been learning the hard way; making things up as he goes along. If you'll permit my analogy-he's taken on this forum solo, patching up the leaks, making this craft stronger, and thereby making it his own. He's shared this with any who would see fit to join. He's made few rules, perhaps because he likes to wander as he explores the tripping world. The ones he has sorta made may not make perfect sense to everyone, including myself, but again, he's not signed on a crew to help steer a course, only companions who'll share the trip. I have stepped away from time to time, as not all threads interest me. I've always made my way back to rejoin this tripping brigade, because I enjoy learning, laughing, and seeing where this group will take me. I have no desire to help out, besides donating $$ whenever it's needed, because I'm more of a drifter than a dedicated crew member. I think Robin has his own vision of what this tripping forum- craft will ultimately look like, and where it'll take him and us. I'm thankful for the journey so far, and am willing to travel as far as we can go. I'm not very interested in turning this solo led excursion into a democratic bureaucracy; I agree with much that has been said so far. I just don't want to see this free-form rag-tag forum group shackle itself to rules, regulations, votes, constitutions and committees. Despotism and anarchy? Hmm, maybe. Or else this is all just one solo tripper's idea of a good trip. We're all welcome to come along, leave for awhile and return, or drift away to chart our own courses. Robin's arbitrary ideas of what is and isn't tripping doesn't bother me. I can engage or ignore at my free will. I do it often, goodness knows why my own blabber drivel hasn't gotten me a telling off. If and when it does, I'll step away to lick my ego wounds, pick up my gear, and hustle to catch up to this tripping brigade. I still have much to learn, to laugh at, and I'm danged if I know where this will take me. This is a good group. I don't want to be left behind.
Nobody formed a committee to rescue a paddling forum sadly set adrift by tragic circumstances. One sole person did. I have no idea why he did, perhaps he's asked himself the same question, likely during stormy sessions of barbed banter. In any case, Robin did rescue this forum, and has been learning the hard way; making things up as he goes along. If you'll permit my analogy-he's taken on this forum solo, patching up the leaks, making this craft stronger, and thereby making it his own. He's shared this with any who would see fit to join. He's made few rules, perhaps because he likes to wander as he explores the tripping world. The ones he has sorta made may not make perfect sense to everyone, including myself, but again, he's not signed on a crew to help steer a course, only companions who'll share the trip. I have stepped away from time to time, as not all threads interest me. I've always made my way back to rejoin this tripping brigade, because I enjoy learning, laughing, and seeing where this group will take me. I have no desire to help out, besides donating $$ whenever it's needed, because I'm more of a drifter than a dedicated crew member. I think Robin has his own vision of what this tripping forum- craft will ultimately look like, and where it'll take him and us. I'm thankful for the journey so far, and am willing to travel as far as we can go. I'm not very interested in turning this solo led excursion into a democratic bureaucracy; I agree with much that has been said so far. I just don't want to see this free-form rag-tag forum group shackle itself to rules, regulations, votes, constitutions and committees. Despotism and anarchy? Hmm, maybe. Or else this is all just one solo tripper's idea of a good trip. We're all welcome to come along, leave for awhile and return, or drift away to chart our own courses. Robin's arbitrary ideas of what is and isn't tripping doesn't bother me. I can engage or ignore at my free will. I do it often, goodness knows why my own blabber drivel hasn't gotten me a telling off. If and when it does, I'll step away to lick my ego wounds, pick up my gear, and hustle to catch up to this tripping brigade. I still have much to learn, to laugh at, and I'm danged if I know where this will take me. This is a good group. I don't want to be left behind.
[h=2]Limited Access[/h] [COLOR=#6A6A6A !important]04-09-2015, 09:23 AM[/COLOR]
Our IT guy, Yassine sent me this note:
"Hi, I managed to keep the executions per hour between 50 and 75% from the allowed amount.(during the night it's pretty low like 20~30%)
But the total executions per 24h, are still high, and sometimes they reach 100% to 120%"
So, Yassine offered me two options, upgrade with our hosting company (I just renewed the 1 year commitment with Siteground, our hosting company in Feb.) or limit access to non members till next Feb when we can make some changes then with a new host company that better fits our needs.
The new policy is that the entire site will be limited to logged in members, guests will be limited to these areas. This should take place shortly.
New registrations policy
News
Small scale site related retailers
Media Room
General Discussion
Let's Get Together
Gear
Please correct me if I am assuming too much here. I believe that this controversy started because of a new thread would use up too much of the allocated data or executions. It seems to be a dollar and cents issue to me. The site can only handle so much activity and the freestyle threads could, and has put us over limit. If this is correct then please acknowledge and let's put this issue to rest.
Our IT guy, Yassine sent me this note:
"Hi, I managed to keep the executions per hour between 50 and 75% from the allowed amount.(during the night it's pretty low like 20~30%)
But the total executions per 24h, are still high, and sometimes they reach 100% to 120%"
So, Yassine offered me two options, upgrade with our hosting company (I just renewed the 1 year commitment with Siteground, our hosting company in Feb.) or limit access to non members till next Feb when we can make some changes then with a new host company that better fits our needs.
The new policy is that the entire site will be limited to logged in members, guests will be limited to these areas. This should take place shortly.
New registrations policy
News
Small scale site related retailers
Media Room
General Discussion
Let's Get Together
Gear
Please correct me if I am assuming too much here. I believe that this controversy started because of a new thread would use up too much of the allocated data or executions. It seems to be a dollar and cents issue to me. The site can only handle so much activity and the freestyle threads could, and has put us over limit. If this is correct then please acknowledge and let's put this issue to rest.
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