Double blade paddle . . . worth it?

Aslowhand said:

To find out what I was doing wrong and to improve my technique, I even filmed myself. If you're interested to watch my attempt on the "bad" (clumsy?, awkward?) side, which is my right hand side, klick on the link below (I hope it works)
https://www.mycloud.ch/l/L00F842BC5342AE70F4CBDC31C8C986CC53D72CD4D5B1A1DDDD05231C20756F58

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André, you have a very efficient forward stroke. You are getting relatively effortless yaw correction by smoothly blending two correction techniques: a J-pry off the gunwale at the end of your forward pull; and a partial in-water return with a loaded blade slice, which is often called the Canadian stroke. I don't know how you are holding your top hand, but if you were doing so horizontally on a secondary grip below the end, one could call what you are doing the northwoods stroke. Terminology varies.

It took me many years to "invent" the Canadian stroke in-water return on my own, never having taken formal instruction, which could have shortened that learning time exponentially, and it is now my automatic go-to correction stroke for lake touring. Sometimes I pry the J off the gunwale, most times I don't, depending on the hull shape of the canoe at the paddling station. Strait or flared sides are more conducive to a gunwale pry.

Steve in Idaho said:

You can't do a meaningful comparison between the paddle types with this data because the boats are also different.

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Yes, the boats are somewhat different. The ICF rules permit the kayaks to have a rudder for example. However, the specifications at https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Olympic-Games/Paris-2024/ICF.pdf and starting on page 24 at https://www.canoeicf.com/sites/default/files/2023_icf_competition_canoe_sprint_rules_v2.pdf are very close. The underwater portions of these kayak and canoe hulls have very few differences. I suspect that a controlled test using identical flatwater canoes would probably yield similar results.

Benson

I can see that the canoe is well heeled over on the paddling side and that your hip (is likely on a) bench seat is right up to the gunwale. I like that. However, the banging on every stroke of the paddle blade against the hull would drive me nuts as well as mark up your canoe. A neighboring canoe would think it odd and an annoying sound as well, likely to scare any animal for a long distance. You might try to reach out a little more away while still keeping the paddle shaft as vertical as possible to the water surface. I realize you are prying the J off the gunwale. Some people swear by that technique, but I for one do not subscribe to that method of abusing my boat or paddle. You do have the beginnings of the Canadian stoke. by keeping it under water longer out to the side. If you can keep the paddle blade submerged for a longer time with lowering your top hand and if you control the underwater tilt of the paddle angle up or down pressure, you can affect the yaw and direction control of your canoe to a greater or lesser extent without applying much if any "J".. it works great.

tketcham said:

I took another look at a grip I have on hand (a used Bending Branches Sunburst grip) and at the shaft of the paddle (ZRE medium straight) and the shaft is oval where I'd have to cut it. I tried heating the shaft to soften the epoxy to remove the grip but it's not going to budge. Shaft is ~1.00" x ~0.75" ID and grip stub is ~0.875" ID round and so I'll have to both sand and fill the grip stub to fit, unless I can force the round grip stub into the oval shaft. Makes it much more difficult to get it all aligned with any precision. I also looked at the blade and the way it's attached to the shaft is more wonky than I remembered (see photo). It's aligned more to one side of the shaft, which makes sense for bent shaft paddles but not for straight shaft. Now I remember why I didn't pursue putting a new grip on the paddle. ZRE doesn't provide many photos of their paddles so when I ordered it I didn't realize that their straight blade paddles aren't symmetrical. Maybe I'll just use the paddle as is for navigating rocky sections of shallow streams. An expensive beater blade. Lesson learned.

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My ZRE 0° bend Z-Whitewater paddle has been my favorite straight paddle for lake touring and easy whitewater for about 12 years, although I mostly use a ZRE 12° bend outrigger paddle for straight ahead flat water stroking. Two days ago I chose the ZRE 0° bend for a posed picture with my new-to-me Swift Keewaydin.



Yes, the blade is very slightly offset from the center of the shaft, which I assume has something to do with ZRE's bending process. That offset has never bothered me at all, and I can't tell any difference between using either paddle face as the power face.

As a frequent palm roller on my forward strokes, I also faced the situation that ZRE, at least then, didn't offer a symmetrical carbon grip for their 0° bend paddle. Harold Deal, who used this same paddle along with his ZRE Power Curve paddle, said the asymmetical palm grip didn't bother his palm rolling. But it bothered me when I tried his paddle.

When I called ZRE about buying a 0° bend, Bob Zaveral informed me that he had a couple of old Barton Paddle symmetrical carbon grips in stock, and that he could install one of those. So he did, and I luckily got a ZRE "straight" paddle with a symmetrical carbon grip.

I would assume the wooden t-grip on the Harold Deal ZRE Power Curve paddle should fit the ZRE shafts.

yknpdlr said:

I can see that the canoe is well heeled over on the paddling side and that your hip (is likely on a) bench seat is right up to the gunwale. I like that. However, the banging on every stroke of the paddle blade against the hull would drive me nuts as well as mark up your canoe. A neighboring canoe would think it odd and an annoying sound as well, likely to scare any animal for a long distance. You might try to reach out a little more away while still keeping the paddle shaft as vertical as possible to the water surface. I realize you are prying the J off the gunwale. Some people swear by that technique, but I for one do not subscribe to that method of abusing my boat or paddle. You do have the beginnings of the Canadian stoke. by keeping it under water longer out to the side. If you can keep the paddle blade submerged for a longer time with lowering your top hand and if you control the underwater tilt of the paddle angle up or down pressure, you can affect the yaw direction control of your canoe to a greater or lesser extent.

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I'll have to agree and disagree bit with yknpdlr. I agree that keeping the paddle in the water longer on the in-water return can increase the correction force, and that tilting the angle of the loaded slicing blade up or down can affect the yaw direction. I also agree that prying off the gunwale can be noisy and not considered "purist" in some quarters.

However, gunwale-pried Js are quite historically traditional, having been recommended by both Omer Stringer and Bill Mason. For long distance touring, the gunwale pry for me definitely requires less energy and produces less muscle fatigue than a non-pried pushaway J. When you do an all-water pushaway J, you have to put more force and strain on your shaft forearm, wrist and fingers than you do when you use the gunwale as a fulcrum for a lever pry.

So, if you can stand the accompanying noise and the friction on your paddle and gunwales, I find that a gunwale-pried J can be both more forceful and less fatiguing than a pushaway J. Whipping the paddle throat, as André has, will reduce the noise and damaging friction on the gunwale and paddle. You can also slide the paddle a bit along the gunwale as you lever, instead of just "klunking" the J.

That all said, I personally don't want to whip my paddles, I wouldn't lever often off aluminum gunwales, and I likely won't lever at all off the infused composite gunwales on my Swift Keewaydin. Wood paddles levered off wood gunwales can dent both, mainly the softer wood paddle shafts, but the dents all smooth out over time—and the use marks don't bother me. I'm not sending my canoes or paddles to a museum any time soon, or ever.

Benson Gray said:

Yes, the boats are somewhat different. The ICF rules permit the kayaks to have a rudder for example. However, the specifications at https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Olympic-Games/Paris-2024/ICF.pdf and starting on page 24 at https://www.canoeicf.com/sites/default/files/2023_icf_competition_canoe_sprint_rules_v2.pdf are very close. The underwater portions of these kayak and canoe hulls have very few differences. I suspect that a controlled test using identical flatwater canoes would probably yield similar results.

Benson

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I would say that when it comes to racing, the differences in restrictions are significant - even just two kg and especially the 200 cm of additional length for K4. It's also notable that no minimum or maximum width is specified for either. Nor is there any mention of hull form below the waterline other than symmetry from side to side.

Just looking at the boats, they show significant differences. And this translates to common canoes and kayaks or pack canoes. When was the last time you saw someone outside of racing paddling a 24" wide canoe without sitting on the floor? 24" kayaks are common.

The only way to know which is most efficient for yourself is to do time trials over distance on flat water with no wind in the same boat and controlling for yourself in the same physical and psychological condition.

Or you could just go with what you like.

Steve in Idaho said:

The only way to know which is most efficient for yourself is to do time trials over distance on flat water with no wind in the same boat and controlling for yourself in the same physical and psychological condition.

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I used to do this when I was racing/training. I had a short single blade I used in my kayaks/surfkis and sometimes, just for funsies and curiosity, I'd paddle for a couple miles with single and then a couple miles with the double (wing). I'd maintain the same heartrate and then compare average speed.

I don't remember the exact results as it was many years ago but I do remember the double was marginally faster for the same heart rate but the difference wasn't much.

I would guess that for most people the double is faster because of an instant increase in stroke rate and less fiddling with poorly executed correction strokes. For someone with a good single blade forward stroke I think the difference would be less noticeable.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

I used to do this when I was racing/training. I had a short single blade I used in my kayaks/surfkis and sometimes, just for funsies and curiosity, I'd paddle for a couple miles with single and then a couple miles with the double (wing). I'd maintain the same heartrate and then compare average speed.

I don't remember the exact results as it was many years ago but I do remember the double was marginally faster for the same heart rate but the difference wasn't much.

I would guess that for most people the double is faster because of an instant increase in stroke rate and less fiddling with poorly executed correction strokes. For someone with a good single blade forward stroke I think the difference would be less noticeable.

Alan

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Did you get up on your knees with the single?

Steve in Idaho said:

Did you get up on your knees with the single?

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No, because I wanted to keep as many variables as possible the same.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

No, because I wanted to keep as many variables as possible the same.

Alan

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Apparently, I'm not using the proper double blade and probably not the proper technique, but when I kneel with a single blade I can go at least as fast and a lot farther. Not as much difference when sitting for both. All that tells me for sure is that I get more power and get it cheaper from kneeling than sitting.

Steve in Idaho said:

Apparently, I'm not using the proper double blade and probably not the proper technique, but when I kneel with a single blade I can go at least as fast and a lot farther. Not as much difference when sitting for both. All that tells me for sure is that I get more power and get it cheaper from kneeling than sitting.

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My bad. I thought you were joking about the olympic high kneel. I was doing my experiments in a surfski or 19" wide kayak so kneeling would have been....interesting.

I've never done much kneeling, especially not for power, so I really don't know how that factors in for me.

I do know that when I started single blading for speed that I didn't have very much of it and no matter how hard I paddled with a single blade I couldn't get my heart rate over 140 while I could easily spike 185 with a double blade. As my single blade forward stroke got better I think the key was using more torso (bigger muscles) and eventually I had no problem driving my heart rate to 180 with a single blade.

Maybe your kneeling vs sitting is similar in that you're putting more torso and body into the kneeling stroke than you are when sitting.

Alan

I find that the most single blade power transfer from body to paddle to water to canoe happens with force in the first 14-18 inches afer a a proper catch, beyond that it is just follow-through to recovery immediately behind the hip and the a quick snap to the catch. Focus on initial power. I don't know about double blade.

In defense of my previous less than positive comments about the "traditional" gunwale pry when doing the J, what I usually tend to do is not normally a full or forceful J. My quick correction solo cruising/power stroke is a combination of a pitch stroke, which is essentially a very early J, followed by a small J push paddle rotation, which morphs into something of a full or partial Canadian, which is essentially a very late J, depending n how I feel at the moment with the conditions. It is quie an automatic no thinking required process.

In a light solo canoe, my recover body rotation to center after torso rotation helps to nearly exactly counter any yaw caused by the power stroke. I never paddle scrub the hull and never pry off the gunwale at any point when cruising a straight ahead line. Nor at any other time for that matter. As a race primary bow paddler, my strokes are all power parallel to the centerline, held away from touching the gunwale with a vertical shaft and a flip to very quick wind feathering recovery back to the catch. I will do minor corrections with partial draws, or bow rudders when necessary for quick minor course corrections, or major power draws to pull us around a bend or avoid an obstacle. When I am in the stern, (I am rarely there as a racer), but either way my stroke is similar to the near zero yaw solo stroke I described above.

I don't get to see my stern paddler's race stroke much when we are cruising with speed, but I am certain that he/she is not scrubbing the hull or regularly prying off the gunwale during any portion of day long straight ahead marathon canoe racing. Stern rudders and draws are combined in combination with cruising J power strokes and hit and switch huts as deemed necessary to keep us going straight.

Alan Gage said:

Maybe your kneeling vs sitting is similar in that you're putting more torso and body into the kneeling stroke than you are when sitting.

Alan

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Yes. And I can reach farther forward for the catch and have less need for correction.

Glenn MacGrady said:

When I called ZRE about buying a 0° bend, Bob Zaveral informed me that he had a couple of old Barton Paddle symmetrical carbon grips in stock, and that he could install one of those. So he did, and I luckily got a ZRE "straight" paddle with a symmetrical carbon grip.

I would assume the wooden t-grip on the Harold Deal ZRE Power Curve paddle should fit the ZRE shafts.

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Interesting. When I emailed ZRE about a symmetrical grip this summer he said they didn't carry them and didn't offer an old grip. You obviously have more influence than I.

That white water grip is great for white water, I used to have a paddle with a similar grip and loved it, but that grip is not so great for freestyle paddling. I've been discussing possible grip solutions with Alan Gage and I may give it a try but between the offset blade and the complications of replacing the grip I'm more inclined to just use the paddle (now cut down to 52") for shallow streams. I'll find out just how tough the Medium really is.

Punkinhead said:

I have a Bending Branches straight shaft paddle with an asymmetric grip but symmetric blade. It makes no sense to me.

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BB Arrow probably. I have one. Since I almost exclusively j-stroke for corrections, it works fine. If I want to get fancy I'll use a different paddle, but a standard j covers a lot of ground. And I could goon stroke I suppose.

memaquay said:

I've got a Werner Journey straight shaft canoe paddle that I use all the time. It's great, only problem is it makes my wooden paddles feel like clubs.

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I like to compare my old Grey Owl Hammerhead to a cricket bat on the very rare occasions when I switch back from my Werner Bandit.

recped said:

I like to compare my old Grey Owl Hammerhead to a cricket bat on the very rare occasions when I switch back from my Werner Bandit.

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My old 58" Seda WW blade (30 oz) is best used for trail clearance. My standard is an 11 oz. ZRE bent.

tketcham said:

When I emailed ZRE about a symmetrical grip this summer he said they didn't carry them and didn't offer an old grip. You obviously have more influence than I.

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Well, my contact on this issue was 12 years ago, and at that time Zav had only one or two Barton symmetrical palm grips left. I'm surprised they've never made any of their own. Little demand, I suppose.

My mistake, I thought you'd put in an order for a straight-shaft paddle recently and got the vintage Barton grip.

I'm not sure why lighter weight straight-shaft paddles aren't more popular. Oftentimes when I let someone try the 15 oz. Greyowl Fleetwood paddle I use they're impressed with the weight and how the paddle feels in their hands and slices through the water. I'd love to have a well-designed carbon freestyle paddle, maybe with an oiled wood grip. I know carbon paddles aren't as beautiful as a craft-made wood paddle but I appreciate the light weight of the carbon and the decent durability for such a thin blade.