New Swift Tandem - Lavieille 17-6

Not a boat for me - but interesting to see a new Swift tandem when there's been so much focus on solos recently...

Swift calls it a three-person canoe. I’ve seen three-seat canoes before, but always thought them tandem canoes with a middle seat for when you want to paddle them solo. Swift’s description of the Lavieille makes it sound like they intend the boat to be paddled by three people. Is that something new or is there a class of three-paddler canoes? If so, are they still called “tandem?”

They moved the seats closer to the stems. I have found the front seat of tandems feel crowded after a while, so I don’t think I’d enjoy the front seat of the Lavieille. And the middle seat is behind the center thwart. I wonder how much knee room the center paddler has. Sounds like an awkward duck to me—wish they had a schematic of the layout, or at least some photos.

Is there a market niche for 3-paddler canoes? Swift must think so. I like Swift canoes and wish them luck with it.

Chip said:

Swift calls it a three-person canoe. I’ve seen three-seat canoes before, but always thought them tandem canoes with a middle seat for when you want to paddle them solo. Swift’s description of the Lavieille makes it sound like they intend the boat to be paddled by three people. Is that something new or is there a class of three-paddler canoes? If so, are they still called “tandem?”

They moved the seats closer to the stems. I have found the front seat of tandems feel crowded after a while, so I don’t think I’d enjoy the front seat of the Lavieille. And the middle seat is behind the center thwart. I wonder how much knee room the center paddler has. Sounds like an awkward duck to me—wish they had a schematic of the layout, or at least some photos.

Is there a market niche for 3-paddler canoes? Swift must think so. I like Swift canoes and wish them luck with it.

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Both Wenonah and Northstar makes them, as well as 4 person canoes.

Wenonah Seneca Wenonah Minnesota 3 Northwind 20 Northstar B19

Chip said:

Is there a market niche for 3-paddler canoes? Swift must think so. I like Swift canoes and wish them luck with it.

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Cottage canoes, Swift are located in the highest density, uber expensive cottage area in Ontario (perhaps all of Canada)

Somewhere I read that this design was spurred by the interest of Algonquin Outfitters, so I am guessing there must be some rental need for such a canoe. I believe that outfitter is owned by Bill's brother, so I imagine they have quite a bit of sway - but it still must be pretty legitimate to go through an entire design process. I can't imagine they do not project selling at least into the hundreds or it just would not be worth the cost and effort...

NikonF5user said:

Somewhere I read that this design was spurred by the interest of Algonquin Outfitters, so I am guessing there must be some rental need for such a canoe. I believe that outfitter is owned by Bill's brother, so I imagine they have quite a bit of sway - but it still must be pretty legitimate to go through an entire design process. I can't imagine they do not project selling at least into the hundreds or it just would not be worth the cost and effort...

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I don't know about other Ontario canoeing parks, but Quetico at least for a while had a maximum group size of nine people. Again, I don't know if that is still in effect. When that was in effect, if someone wanted to fill a trip, they needed four tandem canoes and a solo boat, or three tandem boats and a triple seater. Or three triple seaters. Wenonah sold a lot of their triple seater canoes to outfitters servicing Quetico. Algonquin might do the same thing? Never been there, dunno. Wenonah made money from their triple seat canoes.

A high volume canoe with the gunwales tucked in at the paddle positions seems appealing this dad with twin 8 year olds just growing into useful paddling contribution. Our Trippers are already a bit of a squeeze.

Getting the balance right with three adults in the boat can be pretty hard. Having enough gear in the front o balance the canoe will put it pretty low in the water.

I think the Wenonah and Northstar competitors for this are 2-3 ft longer. I think that makes it a lot more reasonable to seat three people and shift their gear far enough forward for trim.

In my experience the best solution to carrying three people is to have a long canoe and seats that can be moved.

Not a fan of the specs, seems undersized.

Agree feels undersized, since most 3 person canoes are 18-6 to 29-6.

I see lots of people asking about 3 person canoes. The BWCA 9 limit I believe was as a result of the Scouts lobbying for it. I think the original Wilderness legislation or plan was for less - maybe 6. Scouts do 9 people 3 canoe treks. Efficient and all single portage. I do doubt Scouts but Swift canoes, but don't know.

Chip said:

Swift calls it a three-person canoe. I’ve seen three-seat canoes before, but always thought them tandem canoes with a middle seat for when you want to paddle them solo. Swift’s description of the Lavieille makes it sound like they intend the boat to be paddled by three people. Is that something new or is there a class of three-paddler canoes? If so, are they still called “tandem?”

They moved the seats closer to the stems. I have found the front seat of tandems feel crowded after a while, so I don’t think I’d enjoy the front seat of the Lavieille. And the middle seat is behind the center thwart. I wonder how much knee room the center paddler has. Sounds like an awkward duck to me—wish they had a schematic of the layout, or at least some photos.

Is there a market niche for 3-paddler canoes? Swift must think so. I like Swift canoes and wish them luck with it.

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Swift has other boats that have three that they call Combi boats. I guess the center seat on this new boat isn't positioned to solo from.

Their 17' Prospector has three seats and it looks like it should work for three people also, but its optimum load is 100 lbs. less at 650 lbs. So they did add something to their line, I think it's their largest capacity hull now.

3 seater canoes have been around for a while. Wenonah makes a "C3" (20-foot Minnesota-3) that I have often seen in the Adirondack 90 mile canoe race. I think they were first really meant for families who put a youth in the middle seat for tripping. Similarly solos are C1, tandem canoes are called C2, four seaters are C4 (23-foot (Minn-4 and others, notably GRB 26' Mach-4 and Savage River 23' Saranac canoes. Voyageur canoes (formerly called "War canoes") are canoes built with seats for 6 or more paddlers, 28' or longer.
The C4 class has exploded in popularity for racing, mainly in the East. They were virtually unknown in the West, until a number of us petitioned to be the first allowed to race paddle (SR-Saranacs) in the new C4 canoe class in the 440 mile Yukon River Quest, first done in 2017.

Is there a market niche for 3-paddler canoes? Swift must think so.

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As Pseudonym suggests above, I'd think the most likely market for this would be a young family. Throw the kids in the middle side by side & let 'em paddle as they can. Awesome idea and gets kids on the water instead of online.

If that's their market then they're targeting some awfully wealthy young couples. When my wife and I were just starting out and had young kids there's no way we could have afforded a Swift canoe.

I agree that I could imagine wanting to go a bit bigger yet than 17.5’ to “solve” for my family. Truth is, I also have a 4 year old boy too (so it’s three total) and he’ll come along soon. At some point my twins will paddle their own boat, but in the meantime these larger boats might hold a little more allure:

Mason said:

Both Wenonah and Northstar makes them, as well as 4 person canoes.

Wenonah Seneca Wenonah Minnesota 3 Northwind 20 Northstar B19

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I’ve never paddled anything so large, save for war canoes, but those are a different breed entirely. How hard is it to turn these freighters, especially without a strong bow person?

Thanks for the info on 3-seat canoes. Sounds like they are not that uncommon, I once had, on loan, a 15' Dagger Reflection with three seats. I paddled it solo and thought it pleasant to paddle, but I didn't think I'd like it with three full-size people aboard. I believed that biased my thinking on three-paddler canoes. Learning something new is one of the things I like about this forum.

Pseudonym said:

I’ve never paddled anything so large, save for war canoes, but those are a different breed entirely. How hard is it to turn these freighters, especially without a strong bow person?

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When I started canoe racing in 1997, at age 46, I paddled bow seat with colleagues from work in a 34' custom built cedar strip voyageur canoe (war canoe at the time). I paddled that boat for seven years with a few wins, in the Adirondack 90-mile race until my then much younger team mates moved to new jobs after 2004. For a few years after that I paddled the 90-miler in a C1 or a C2 until I was invited to paddle the Yukon River YRQ in 2008 in another custom 28’ cedar strip voyageur, then a monster 34'' cargon voyageur in the first ever Yukon 1000-mile Y1K in 2009 (with a win). A 28’ Cedar voyageur again in 2011 Y1K. Back for another YRQ in the cedar voyageur in 2013, and finally the YRQ again in a Savage River carbon C4 in 2017. All from the bow seat. In recent years I have bow paddled the 90 mostly in C4 Wenonahs.

As bow paddler, my favorite segment on the 90 miler was and remains Brown's Tract, a 2.5 mile severely winding quite narrow feeder stream route with turn after turn bends. Many turns are greater than 90 degrees with several beaver dams chutes to aim at and navigate through. The Yukon also presents itself with the necessity of making quick turn route short cut power decisions while in heavy current.

The secret is for bow and stern paddler to be in mind sync, although in Brown's I hut separate from the crew at my own timing as needed to get us around the bends using a power draw, bow rudder, bow jam, or whatever else does the job. When I make my move to strongly draw us from the bow, stern must immediately draw opposite to get us at the proper angle for us to whip around the bend. Middle seat paddlers maintain our forward motion power. Very few boats from behind will ever catch or pass us. I just love taking charge from the bow and attacking those turns.

Punkinhead said:

If that's their market then they're targeting some awfully wealthy young couples. When my wife and I were just starting out and had young kids there's no way we could have afforded a Swift canoe.

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In my part of the world (Adirondacks), there are several outfitters who have C3 and C4 canoes for rent. I do not own either of those myself, but I do rent a C4 for the 90-miler each year, or paddle in one or another that one of my Yukon partners actually own. most of my fleet consists of either C1 solo or C2 canoes, plus an original cedar voyageur. For the record, I would not entertain for myself buying or renting a stock C3. Many outfitters will apply a season's rental fee to purchase of a new or used boat.

When we ran Grumman 17 foot whitewater canoes with the school club, we routinely had three people in a canoe...However, we made sure they were light weights, and the 3rd person usually sat low on some canvas packs, more of a passenger than a paddler. I Stretched out a J. Winters Quetico from 18.5 to 20 feet. That was a good 3 person canoe. For three adults, 17.5 is pushing it, 20 feet would be better.

I agree with members above that this is likely targeted at families and scout/young adult groups. I doubt (3) 200 lb adults would want to paddle that boat on a trip, but (3) small adults or a young family would be perfect.

I just ordered a Souris River Quetico 18.5 for the family. I have 3 young girls, a 4 year old and 3 yr old twins. The plan for this boat is to try to squeeze everyone in for the next couple years of short trips to get them hooked. After that when the kids start getting bigger we’ll take two boats. The boat comes with 3 seats, the middle seat more of a bench that the twins will fit on side by side. I also ordered their optional drop in seat for my 4 yr old. We’ll see how it goes.

Last year I built a custom bench seat for my 16’ mad river explorer, and put it right in front of the yoke so the kids could sit side by side and have the yoke as a backrest. That worked great for day trips and for a 3 night trip with our oldest and dog, but there’s no way I could squeeze everyone and gear in there for a trip.

I’m happy companies are still thinking about families with their lineups. I know the craze lately has been solo paddling, but I don’t get on the water much without the kids. I hope that doesn’t change for a long time.