Thinking of making a carbon fiber paddle...

....or maybe I should say, " assembling one".

I'm thinking about my winter projects, and the idea hit me that since I'm not likely to find a straight carbon paddle on the used market (all but one of my paddles were bought used) maybe I can make one. I read through a thread here about doing that, and decided I'm not up to doing it that way. Since I recently became aware of affordable carbon fiber tubing, another idea came to mind. I could carve a grip from a lightweight wood, match that to purchased tube, and all I would have to produce from carbon cloth would be the blade.

Sound feasible?

How would you go about fashioning that blade so that it could be plugged into the shaft with a snug fit and epoxy? I'm thinking of a Sugar Island style blade, slightly foil shaped but thin. Something that would be suitable as a mild river and meandering stream paddle to go with the Wildfire. I'd want it to be perfectly symmetrical.

Also, what wall thickness should I go with on the tubing? 1mm? 2mm? I should've measured the Zav when I had the grip off to shorten it.

Too bad @Alasgun hasn't been around for a while. He's likely our most experienced maker of carbon fiber paddles.

Glenn MacGrady said:

Too bad @Alasgun hasn't been around for a while. He's likely our most experienced maker of carbon fiber paddles.

Making a Composite/Carbon Paddle

[Admin Note: This is a thread I've split off from Alasgun's "Evolution of an Alaskan DipShip" thread so that his postings and pictures of how he is building a composite/carbon paddle can be centralized in a separate thread. I will first populate it with the paddle-related posts from that other...

www.canoetripping.net

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Yes, that's the thread I was reading and I was actually hoping he would chime in. Although I don't have the setup to do it the way he showed, maybe he's experimented with a different approach. I'm sure he'd be helpful either way.

My latest idea is to carve a single side mold from balsa or basswood and make each face of the blade separately, then sandwich them together before attaching to the shaft.

...I was actually hoping he would chime in.

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He hasn't stopped in since April but it's a short season up there and he may be back in the winter. You can always send a personal message (envelope in the upper right of your screen). That will probably generate an email notification to his home email.

Whatever you decide, post your process and let us know how it comes out.

Steve in Idaho said:

My latest idea is to carve a single side mold from balsa or basswood and make each face of the blade separately, then sandwich them together before attaching to the shaft.

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Why not mold the blade right onto the shaft rather than make a blade then glue it to (into?) a shaft? I'd think it would be stronger this way, though maybe not significantly so? Maybe lighter, too, though again maybe not significantly so? A lot of possible construction variables for sure.

I have only bought two paddle for myself in my life, I made all the rest. The last one I bought is the one I use the most now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't make it, but you probably have a better skill set than my usual wood butchery style.

Gamma1214 said:

He hasn't stopped in since April but it's a short season up there and he may be back in the winter. You can always send a personal message (envelope in the upper right of your screen). That will probably generate an email notification to his home email.

Whatever you decide, post your process and let us know how it comes out.

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I'm not likely to get started on it until the snow flies. But I'll post it here for sure. Might be a "how not to" or "why not to" thread.

Nick Pending said:

Why not mold the blade right onto the shaft rather than make a blade then glue it to (into?) a shaft? I'd think it would be stronger this way, though maybe not significantly so? Maybe lighter, too, though again maybe not significantly so? A lot of possible construction variables for sure.

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It's a good question. I haven't ruled it out. But I'd like to be able to eliminate any ridge at the paddle/shaft interface without having to feather it if possible. If I can get tubing with OD to match the ID of the main shaft, that might work.

memaquay said:

I have only bought two paddle for myself in my life, I made all the rest. The last one I bought is the one I use the most now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't make it, but you probably have a better skill set than my usual wood butchery style.

Journey Carbon 1 Piece Straight Shaft

Experience performance and comfort with the Journey Carbon. A traditional canoe paddle, with design features like a straight buoyant blade and a traditional symmetrical palm grip. FEATURES The volume of a buoyant designed carbon blade creates an exceedingly light feel. This POPS the blade from...

wernerpaddles.com

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Ha! I've seen your work. Nice stuff.

The Journey is kinda what I have in mind and I'm not against buying it, but I thought I'd try this first...... unless someone puts one up for sale used.

Yeah, I know. If it takes more than one attempt, I could end up spending just as much.

If I'm not mistaken ZRE paddle blades are shaped foam covered with carbon. They definitely are not solid carbon. If you regularly paddle over shallow sand and gravel the tip will wear away. Once it wears away to a certain point the edge will start to open up.

I think you'll need a core of some kind inside the blade. If you have balsa readily available I'd start with that and then cover it with either fiberglass or carbon as a test. I'd shape the top of the blade so it slides into the shaft and then wrap the joint with carbon or fiberglass. I think balsa would be a nice way to test the process and it should have enough rigidity to maintain its shape while laminating.

Ideally, for weight, the final blade would be high density foam. You can buy this in thicknesses from 1/8" and thicker. This would be shaped as needed and then laminated. You could add fiberglass or dynel at the tip to help with abrasion. The laminate would run well past the edge of the foam and then, after it's cured, you would trim it back.

The problem becomes how do you keep the foam in exactly the right shape while laminating? Preferably you would weight the blade after lamination for compression but that would probably change the shape unless you had a mold to place it in.

You could laminate without adding weight or compression and it would probably be ok.

I've thought about making carbon paddles a few times but since I already had a few I didn't pursue it because I couldn't think of a good way to do it that would match or better what I already had.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

If I'm not mistaken ZRE paddle blades are shaped foam covered with carbon. They definitely are not solid carbon. If you regularly paddle over shallow sand and gravel the tip will wear away. Once it wears away to a certain point the edge will start to open up.

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Yes, their website states that the blades have a foam core. I wouldn't be grinding this or any other carbon blade into sand or rock very much.

Alan Gage said:

I think you'll need a core of some kind inside the blade. If you have balsa readily available I'd start with that and then cover it with either fiberglass or carbon as a test. I'd shape the top of the blade so it slides into the shaft and then wrap the joint with carbon or fiberglass. I think balsa would be a nice way to test the process and it should have enough rigidity to maintain its shape while laminating.

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I've been thinking along the same lines. Balsa is easy to get, in 1/8" sheets. I haven't found thicker stock of much length yet, but haven't looked much. I suppose I could laminate and build it up if I can keep the glue volume low. I wonder what the weight difference would be over foam core.

Alan Gage said:

Ideally, for weight, the final blade would be high density foam. You can buy this in thicknesses from 1/8" and thicker. This would be shaped as needed and then laminated. You could add fiberglass or dynel at the tip to help with abrasion. The laminate would run well past the edge of the foam and then, after it's cured, you would trim it back.

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That sounds like a plan. .

Alan Gage said:

The problem becomes how do you keep the foam in exactly the right shape while laminating? Preferably you would weight the blade after lamination for compression but that would probably change the shape unless you had a mold to place it in.

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I wonder if laminating one 1/8" layer of balsa in the middle would stiffen up the foam laminate enough to keep it straight. That would be a good starting experiment.

Alan Gage said:

You could laminate without adding weight or compression and it would probably be ok.

I've thought about making carbon paddles a few times but since I already had a few I didn't pursue it because I couldn't think of a good way to do it that would match or better what I already had.

Alan

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I also noticed that ZRE mentions using carbon and glass. I wish I knew if they do a glass layer first, and for how much of the blade. I'm pretty sure they don't carry it out to the edge, but I'm not against that. I also wonder what weight of fabric I should use and how many layers.

I could just experiment and then test to failure.....like SpaceX.

Steve in Idaho said:

I also wonder what weight of fabric I should use and how many layers.

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You could measure the thickness of a ZRE paddle at the edge where there is no foam. You know there at least 2 layers there (I suspect that's all there is). Then compare that thickness to the thickness of dry carbon cloth. It would be a starting point.

It would make sense to me that if ZRE added fiberglass it would be at the edge where they will wear the most. I think I've worn the tips off of three ZRE paddles. One I wrapped the worn edge with fiberglass and the other two with dynel. Looks awful but works great.

Alan

Sorry for missing this earlier, been busy; ive made them from balsa where i buy various pieces and glue them into a close approximation and i’ve just used a piece of pink board and profiled the proper “form” using my milling machine after which they were final shaped with a rasp and paper. Eliminate the mill and replace it with a jig saw and you’ll get there too. Then just buy some carbon sleeve material to cover the form and wet it out. It will take 2 sizes of sleeve but once final sanded and finished it’s hard to see. You’ll go over it twice too.

Earlier in this i notice several comments on “tip wear”! What ive seen is very minimal wear and on some of mine i’ve opened up one side of “sleeve material” (carbon/kevlar) and used it as a tip guard. On one i used several layers of carbon tow laid along the edge, that one has the nicest look.

After completing several of them i would now lean toward balsa for several reasons. Foam is much harder to work down to the thin sections required in a paddle but the biggest issue for me is the noise. My Foam paddles are LOUD in the boat, against anything you push off of, in the gravel, in the back of the truck etc. from a weight stand point the foam may have a slight edge but you are splitting hairs, in normal use a 16 oz paddle feels just like an 18 oz paddle! To me anyway.

Since i was on here last winter i’ve made several carbon fly rod tubes using t-12 bulb protectors as a form. Its embarrassing how simple this process is and they work so well. I just looked and find those same protectors for t-5 bulbs which could be used for a paddle shaft form, simplifying a lot of the project. On some of my paddles i used carbon tube from .750 to .937 or what ever was cheap on ebay, then your just making a blade and a knob!
These pictures show a group of fly rod tubes “in the beginning” stage. On most i go over once with glass then carbon. In the second picture i made the two tubes in the center.
Im just starting a couple more of these and if theres interest i can show you enough of the procedure and with any imagination at all you could adapt these ideas into your paddle?

And heres a link to some t-5 tubes, this is just the first one i pulled up, there’s plenty of sources out there. Maybe even a local lumber yard? Looks like the nominal O.D is .740 which would give you a finished shaft diameter of .830 give or take. Another cool aspect of using these tube guards is; after you put the first layer of cloth on and wet it out then it’s easy to flatten it ever so slightly if an oval shaft interest you? After the first layer is hard the other layers simply build on the shape you’ve all-ready established! Pretty cool.

https://lightbulbsurplus.com/content/file-1452006770.pdf

Alasgun said:

Sorry for missing this earlier; ive made them from balsa where i buy various pieces then glue lam them into a close configuration and i’ve just used a piece of pink board and profiled the proper “form” using my milling machine after which they were final shaped with a rasp and paper. Eliminate the mill and replace it with a jig saw and you’ll get there too. Then just buy the carbon sleeve material to cover the form and wet it out. It will take 2 sizes of sleeve but once final sanded and finished it’s hard to see. You’ll go over it twice too.

Several commented on “tip wear”! What ive seen is very minimal wear and on some of mine i’ve opened up one side of “sleeve material” (carbon/kevlar) and used it as a tip guard.

After completing several of them i would now lean toward balsa for several reasons. Foam is much harder to work down to the thin sections required in a paddle but the biggest issue for me is the noise. My Foam paddles are LOUD in the boat, against anything you push off of, in the gravel, in the back of the truck etc. from a weight stand point the foam may have a slight edge but you are splitting hairs, in normal use a 16 oz paddle feels just like an 18 oz paddle! To me anyway.

Since i was on here last ive made numerous carbon fly rod tubes using t-12 bulb protectors for a form. Its embarrassing how simple this process is and they work real well. I just looked and find those same protectors for t-5 bulbs which could be used for the shaft form, simplifying a lot of the project. On some of my paddles i used carbon tube from .750 to .937 or what ever was cheep on ebay, then your just making a blade and a knob!

Here’s a group of fly rod tubes, which i go over once with glass then carbon. In the next picture i made the two tubes in the center. Im just starting a couple more of these and if theres interest i can show you enough of the procedure and with any imagination at all you could adapt your ideas into a paddle?

And heres a link to t-5 tubes, this is just the first one i pulled up, there’s plenty of them out there. Maybe even a local lumber yard?
https://lightbulbsurplus.com/content/file-1452006770.pdf

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Thanks for the ideas. I'm thinking for now that I'll buy CF tubing for the shaft, and balsa to form the blade. Maybe balsa for the grip too, but I might experiment with doing that with foam.

- These folks have a good selection of various sleeve materials, once i started using these my finished product looked so much better than trying to edge finish blades covered in fabric! It’s amazing how much they will expand and contract once you wet them out.

I’ve seen those tube sleeves at the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe’s.
Jim

Alasgun said:

- These folks have a good selection of various sleeve materials, once i started using these my finished product looked so much better than trying to edge finish blades covered in fabric! It’s amazing how much they will expand and contract once you wet them out.

Braided Carbon Biaxial Sleeves - Soller Composites, LLC

100% Carbon Biaxial Sleeves Angle: +-45/45 Length: Cut to length (as ordered) Wholesale Pricing: Starts at 10 lbs 3K (Light) Sleeve Fiber: TR30S (640Ksi Tensile Strength, 34Msi Tensile Modulus) 6K (Med) Sleeves Fiber: TR50S (710Ksi Tensile Strength, 35MsiRead More

sollercompositesllc.com

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I've used this sleeving to make foam tubes and thwarts and it really is remarkable stuff.

You can also buy release treated heat shrink that will give a smooth finish without all the fill coats and sanding. It works great on shorter pieces but, as I recall, it can be a bit trickier to slide over a longer shaft. The heat shrink tube, as I recall, was quite expensive. That was nearly 10 years ago so maybe it's more expensive now or maybe it's become more readily available and less expensive.

There is also a heat shrink tape that can work on a straight tube but does not work on complex curves. It's fiddly to apply but is considerably less expensive. The finish is not as good but it's better than using nothing.



Alan

Question on the order of the layers, I thought FG had better abrasion resistance than CF, why put the FG on the inside?

I know with CF canoe hulls, they will add a light FG as on outside layer for abrasion protection ... at least that is my understanding.

Curious, as I might actually try some of this on my next batch of paddles.

Brian

Cruiser said:

Question on the order of the layers, I thought FG had better abrasion resistance than CF, why put the FG on the inside?

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One possible reason could be to build the thickness with cheaper materials. Carbon on the outside, at a larger diameter, would probably provide more strength and stiffness than using it as the inner layer and then adding fiberglass to the outside.

I have no idea how much difference it would make and it's probably pretty minor. It's just the thing that came to mind.

Alan