Klepper Kamerad (Fiberglass Solo Decked Canoe Conversion) ? Price

[Guest]

I’m thinking about Craigslisting our fiberglass Klepper Kamerad TS, an uncommon boat, now configured as a solo decked canoe with a raised seat suitable for single or double blade paddling. 15’ 11” long x 30” wide, 12 ½” deep at center, spacious 90” x 19 ½” cockpit opening. Sale includes the downwind sail & mount and the modified Klepper and Ottertail paddles shown.

The Kamerad is set up with a utility/sail thwart, Wenonah sliding seat, Surf to Summit back band, adjustable Mohawk foot pedals, Dynel skid plates, D-rings and other tie downs to secure float bags or gear, knee and heel pads. It is a fine open water sailer or decked camping canoe with plenty of room for gear. The stern opening fits a 115L dry bag or 60L blue barrel (compass and barrel will not be included). Build like a tank, with internal buttresses between hull and decks, it weighs 74 lbs with rudder.

I don’t have much of an idea about an asking price in this seller’s market. I’m not interested in dickering, or in squeezing every penny out of it.

Any ideas about how much to ask?

Photos
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153467...57719012523415

 

[dogbrain]

I think you could get a couple thousand Mike. Since Krugers are no longer made, or anything real close, there is a bit of pent up demand for something similar. Somebody told me there is a used Kruger for sale on Team Kruger facebook group for $9,500. Will it sell for that? Who knows. Is your boat fiberglass cloth or choppergun?

Mark

 

[Alan Gage]

I have no idea but if the Rivermiles forum is still going and active it would be a good place to list it. It's home of the MR340 race and frequented by a lot of long distance racers.

A;am

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

$675.

It may be a seller's market for some things, like cheap fixer-uppers and mid-range price canoes and kayaks in decent shape, e.g., $800 to $1500. But I don't think expensive stuff is selling any better than usual. Nor does odd or niche stuff ever sell to anyone other than the handful of fellow nichees.

I don't see this unusual and almost unheard of craft being attractive to performance oriented open canoeists, or sea kayakers, or rec kayakers, or gram weenie paddlers, or portage trippers, or cottage canoe buyers, or family canoe buyers. No matter how much time, effort, money, creativity and love you have put into this hull, you will have luck into a serious nichee, not too far away, to get good money for the KK. Otherwise, you will have to drop the price to a level that will attract a first-time buyer or profligate boat slut to drop some easy spare cash for an experimental hull.

I'm rooting that I'm wrong, but I've just never seen many of these kinds of boats in person, in stores or online, which signals to me lack of demand.

 

[bark-eater]

Well I just happend across this post,while sitting and staring at my own Klepper Kamerad Kit, and I have a pretty good idea of what all the parts and materials and how much time you must have invested. 2k would be a good deal for the right person. I think listing it on the watertribe and kruger Facebook pages would get you some interest. I've gotten into bikes and it's staggering to think of how little their worth after all the money and time goes into building one up from a frame. Your klepper is kind of famous in certain virtual circles and might make good trade bait if you were looking for a different toy, like one of those home made kevlar solos that loads it self on the truck.

 

[martin2007]

Mike, that's a rare boat that could be of interest to someone who already knows or owns Klepper folding boats. Someone like me! Except that adding any boats to my fleet is out of the question at this stage. From the photos I can see that it's in beautiful condition, and nicely customized as per all your boats. Consider posting about it on Foldingkayaks.org. Kleppers have a small cult following, and someone at the forum might be of help or might take an interest.

 

[Guest]

I have a pretty good idea of what all the parts and materials and how much time you must have invested.

Your klepper is kind of famous in certain virtual circles

Bark-eater, I’ve done enough of those decked canoe conversions and outfitting to know what I have in it in parts and materials. The labor, which was considerable, is as always a freebie in my mind; I had fun doing it, and learned a lot. The Kamerad is back in the shop now for some additional TLC and a tune up.

It is a much better, more comfortable, more efficient boat than when it went out the Klepper door in 1974. I’m not looking to trade for another boat; I’ll be storing two 18-footers over the summer, and even without them would like to have fewer canoes on the racks.

There’s a thin line between famous and infamous in virtual circles. I’ll happily accept either.

Mike, that's a rare boat that could be of interest to someone who already knows or owns Klepper folding boats. Consider posting about it on Foldingkayaks.org. Kleppers have a small cult following, and someone at the forum might be of help or might take an interest.

Martin, thanks for the Foldingkayaks forum suggestion. I registered for the site and put it on the classifieds for sale there. Less than Dogbrain’s “couple thousand’, a bit more than Glenn’s $675.

$925 with a pristine (even the label) Klepper paddle, sail and other accessories, $825 without the sail or back band.

I may put it on the Rivermiles or Watertribe forums before resorting to Craigslist. But the Kamerad is not exactly a “race” boat, 15’ 11” x 30.5”. A 6.26 WL is pokey compared to other decked canoes and converted “European Style Touring” tandems.

Even a 15’ Bell Rob Roy is “faster”, 6.3LW. (Bell’s catalog LW spec of 7.1 was nonsense. Maybe with a 100lb paddler, helium balloon floatation and no gear)

The Sawyer Loon, Mad River Monarch and Kruger SeaWind had 7.2 to 7.3 length-to-waterline ratios. The Savage River Falcon is about the same, and the Clipper Sea1 has a 7.6 LW

Even the converted 1971 Old Town Sockeye (6.6 LW) or vintage Phoenix Vagabond (6.8 LW) would be theoretically faster.

(All LW’s calculated without any length-reducing bow layout, divided by max width for carrying a deeper waterline load)

 

[Sweetfancymoses]

They were/are a big deal in Germany.

http://bokkura.com/en/about-klepper/history/

https://www.br.de/mediathek/video/p...ote-aus-bad-toelz-av:584f8d0a3b46790011a24ceb

 

[Guest]

I got offers for the Kamerad immediately from the Folding Kayak forum, one hours after the ad appeared. The first guy has dibs and we are trying to get together. What he does with Klepper Kamerads is mind blowing.

https://sailyourkayak.com/klepper-ka...sailing-kayak/

He obviously doesn’t want the little downwind sail, and laughed when I mentioned throwing in the “vintage” 270cm (!) Klepper paddle, saying he had the same-useless several. Can’t give them away. (I might cut the ferrules off one, cut the shafts down a touch and add single blade grips.

The downside is that all of my soloization outfitting, sliding seat, utility thwart, foot pedals and modified rudder will need to be removed for his schooner-rigged customization & outfitting.

The upside is that the Kamerad will go on to new and much better life, so everyone is happy.

 

[bark-eater]

Wow. Something to think about when I start drilling all those devaluation holes....

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Amazing! There is a kayak sailing nichee in northern Vermont. He and his wife repurpose obsolete Klepper, Pionier and Easy Rider kayaks into double outrigger sailing kayaks, or sell kits to allow you to do so with yours.

I suppose he just wants your naked hull, to which he can attach his more expensive utility thwart, seat, sail, pontoons and rudder. I'm skeptical about how much sales volume he actually has, but who knows, and obsessive paddlers do things more for love than money. As I freely advise, based on more than half a century observing the canoe market, the surefire way to end up with a million dollars selling canoe stuff is to . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . start with two million.

I have a Klepper double blade paddle, too, or maybe it's Folbot. Pretty powerful paddle, actually. Probably not worth anything. Nor does my excellent condition $3,500 custom made Hawaiian outrigger canoe have much market value east of the Sacramento River.

Hope you can link up with SYK on his way to the Sails Angels event in Florida. Meanwhile, here's one of his videos (perhaps one day featuring a raped, scraped, taped and shaped McCrea divorcee):

 

[alsg]

I'm not sure if I'm more astonished by the complexity of that sailing rig or by seeing a kayaker using a single blade paddle.

 

[Guest]

The Kamerad buyer and I have very different uses for those vintage decked “European Style Touring Canoes”. He creates sailing schooners of striking beauty and function; I make utilitarian decked solo tripping boats with simple downwind sails.

If Matt’s vintage OT Pack sold for $800 I may have underpriced the Kamerad at $825. Don’t care; I know I have under-valued every boat I have ever sold. I kinda hope the buyer can put a single BSD sail with crossbar outriggers/leeboard on it as is, and flip it as a raised, sliding seat solo sailer without gutting my handiwork.

Sure hope someone tries it in that guise at the forthcoming sailing rendezvous; he might not even need to haul it home.

I do love those soloized, raised seat tandems as decked tripping hulls.

P9181350 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The blue one on the right is a 1977 Hyperform Optima, gutted and ready for outfitting. All three of those decked oddities downwind sail very well. The pigmented (no gel coat) glass & nylon Optima is the lightest of the bunch, and sails like a champ.

(Oddly enough DougD and I each own ’77 Hyperform Optimas converted to solo decked trippers. His, same year, is woven roving, glass and gel coat heavy. Nanny nanny boo boo!)

PB221564 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

When the Klepper rides off into the sunset I’ll have another decked “canoe” oddity to sell, probably on Craigslist this time. A well appointed Pamlico 160-T, from before Wilderness Systems redesigned (and ruined) it.

Soloized of course, raised, single blading center seat, modern rudder and foot pedals, utility thwart and sail, etc, etc. AKA - no offense to Sea Wind aficionados - “The Plastic Kruger, in near indestructible poly. Eh, 80lbs of near indestructible poly.

15’ 5” x 33” max beam, with a waterline, even when heavily loaded, a couple inches less and, at nearly 14” deep, the soloized P-160 is a perfect big boy, big load gear hauler for open water tripping & sailing. The original design of both the P-145 and P-160 both had contiguous rocker, and both those Pamlicos sail very well.

We will not be parting with our soloized P-145 any time soon; that may be the best sailing, plastic, ruddered, pocket tripper ever made.

 

[Guest]

Kamerad goes bye bye.

That was too much fun. Jon, the buyer, is a fellow oddball decked boat aficionado, and had a couple tres-cool boats already on his racks, with room left up the middle for one more. A truck cap set up with crossbars to carry at least three boats? A brutha from another motha; glad I picked him up in the 4-boat toter van.

Jon was pulling a 33’ travel trailer, so parking was a problem to be solved. We met in a Park & Ride lot a few miles away, where Jon cunningly parked his rig obscuring the “No unattended trailers” sign.

P4300001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That’s the Kamerad up the middle. No, Jon is not 15’ tall.

P4300002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Back to the shop to eyeball some decked boat oddities. Jon had me when he fell in love with the ’71 Old Town Sockeye (nee Sea Wimp); he was looking at the hull shape and design with a practiced sailor’s eye. The Sea Wimp’s deep torpedo shape is still hands down the best sailing decked boat we own; I’ve seen two, and own one of them.

And so too with the ’77 Hyperform Optima. Jon had a hungry look in his eye when he saw it, and again, I’ve seen two; I own one, DougD the other. We had an enjoyable and too brief visit back at my place, talking boats and paddles and gear, and could have spent hours. Next time.

And I expect there will be a “next time”. Now that I know he’s looking for that type of vintage “European style tandem touring” canoe/kayak I’ll be keeping an eye out, if only as bait to meet up again.

As usual I couldn’t let a boat buyer drive away without a couple extras. A handful of Sgt. Knots cord locks. A yoga block beverage holder console, with which to no doubt amaze the folks at the next sailing rendezvous. Eh, he didn’t want another 270cm Klepper paddle (no one in their right mind does), but a similar vintage 210cm Kober found a place in his trailer before he left. Had to go in the trailer, it’s a no-ferule one piece.

P4300016 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Not sure he really wanted that paddle either, but I sure as heck don’t need two.