Use of Titebond II Premium Wood Glue on parts exposed to water

[Chip]

Between the time and expense of gathering materials and rebuilding a 1999 Old Town webbed seat, I've decided to go the replacement route. Disassembly of the 1999 seat was disturbingly easy. I could see remnants of white glue in the joints, but the glue was doing nothing to hold the seat together. So, I'd like the next seat to be built with a more durable glue.

I know a seat can be had for less if I order on-line, but I try to buy from a local shop (Annapolis Canoe and Kayak) when possible. They sell a canoe seat sourced from Essex Industries, which assembles the seats using Titebond II Premium Wood Glue, which they say is waterproof.

Can anyone share experience with Titebond II on projects that are destined to get wet? Does it hold up well?

 

[Guest]

Chip, I’d like to know if there are construction differences between Eds Canoe and Essex wood frame seats.

I have always ordered from Eds; their webbed seats are well constructed durable, but I’ve found their varnish (?) work wears thin much faster than my own refurbished seats with multiple (3+) coats of spar urethane. I have no known experience with Essex.

At this point I’d rather buy a well made, well designed wood seat with mortise and tendon joints, especially if I could get one left as sanded but unfinished wood, coat it as I please and install my own webbing.

Screwing around refinishing old canoe seats is good shop fun, but at $30 for a ready-made flat bench seat it doesn’t make much sense, even for an old retired guy with time on his hands.

I once made my own seats, and yokes and thwarts; the latter were such a waste of shop time that I still (10 years later) have a half dozen yokes and a dozen thwarts all shapely cut and routed, awaiting laborious sanding and sealing.

 

[alsg]

I would not reglue with PVA glue. Get a good two part epoxy, add a thickener and you won't ever have to reglue that seat.

 

[Conk]

They sell a canoe seat sourced from Essex Industries, which assembles the seats using Titebond II Premium Wood Glue, which they say is waterproof.

Can anyone share experience with Titebond II on projects that are destined to get wet? Does it hold up well?

Franklin International, the makers of Titebond adhesives, describes the Titebond II Premium as being "weatherproof". It is Titebond III Ultimate, which is labeled "waterproof".
I build all of my seats using Titebond III Ultimate. I prefer it to Titebond II because of the longer open time but have tremendous faith in both. I believe it is the quality and fit of the materials being bonded that play the biggest roll in the strength and longevity of a joint. It does not hurt that a manufacturer bills their product as waterproof.
I am unaware of a joint failure in any seat I have made.

 

[madmike]

I don't like Franklin's Titebond 2. Elmers type 3 is nice to work with.

 

[BWCA66]

Merrimack has been using seat frames from Essex for decades and I've seen many 30 year old seats that are still as tightly together as when they were new

 

[Jim Dodd]

I epoxy my seat frames, . More work, but no question as to it's water proofness.

Making your own seats, is satisfying, and yes, a lot of extra work.

I like to contour mine with an inch of drop, in the center.

 

[Guest]

I epoxy my seat frames, . More work, but no question as to it's water proofness.

Making your own seats, is satisfying, and yes, a lot of extra work.

I like to contour mine with an inch of drop, in the center.

Jim, I gotta admit a webbed seat would look out-of-place fugly in those canoes.

I agree about using epoxy. I have not used any of the Titebond products on joints and have no doubt that the right Titebond in skilled hands is fine, but I always have epoxy and G/flex in the shop and can usually find secondary uses for any dregs in the pot.

I lack the skills or patience to build a decent contour seat. And certainly lack the patience to lace babish. But I have installed contour seats in every canoe that I paddle with any frequency, including a couple brand new ones that came with flat bench seats.

Usually Ed’s Canoe wide contour seats with webbing.

https://www.edscanoe.com/40cecacose.html

But I’m not dropping $60 ($10 extra for webbing instead of cane) for boats I am selling or giving away; can’t see jacking the price of a used tandem by $120 on the selling point that it has contour seats.

Next time I need a contour seat to install I will ask Ed’s or Essex the price for a sanded contour seat left unvarnished and unwebbed. I’d rather do my own multiple coats of varnish (urethane) and web them myself. If I had a couple of naked Eds or Essex now it would be little more work to urethane and web those while I am refurbishing a couple old seats.

 

[Cruiser]

I second the notion for using epoxy, TB III is a strong product, but like most glues, it has no significant gap filling capabilities. With the way a seat goes together and gets used, it is pretty easy to get a small gap, with the torsion and weight applied ... that can open up or fail completely if just glue is used.

 

[Chip]

Here's an email from a rep at Essex. He's responding to my email, asking: why not use Titebond III?

"First of all, we use a mortise and tenon joint which is superior to dowels for sure. As far as why we use the II, we have used both and liked the consistency of the II over the III along with dry time I believe. We have not once ever had a seat come back to us because of the joint. I was always a firm believer of epoxy over the Titebond. I did a test once to show a friend on his gun stock why he should be using epoxy over the TB II. I was fooled and ran several other tests indoors and outdoors. I am now a firm believer in this TB II. You are correct and I should have used the term water resistant. BUT I have been here at EI for 35 years doing this type of work and feel comfortable using the term waterproof. I’m surprised they don’t. If you are certain you want TB III for your seats I’m sure for a little more cost we could perhaps pick up a bottle and make your seats if you would like. Thank you once again."

Okay, I'm convinced enough to buy and try an Essex seat.

I guess it's a testament to how well seats, in general, are made. When I asked Old Town customer service how their seats were made, they referred me to their source, Dri-Ki Woodworking. There must not be a lot of seat failures, or people would care more, and sales reps would know this stuff.

 

[BWCA66]

You will not be disappointed with an Essex seat.

 

[BWCA66]

At this point I’d rather buy a well made, well designed wood seat with mortise and tendon joints, especially if I could get one left as sanded but unfinished wood, coat it as I please and install my own webbing.

I buy a lot of unfinished and unwebbed or unstrung seat frames from Essex and we string and finish them ourselves. Quality has been great, we get Ash and cherry, they don't do walnut because their sawdust goes to horse farms and I guess horses and walnut don't mix.

 

[Guest]

Here's an email from a rep at Essex.
"First of all, we use a mortise and tenon joint which is superior to dowels for sure.

Good to know that Essex uses a mortise and tendon joint, and not dowels. I was curious enough to call Ed’s and ask; they use dowels.

I guess it's a testament to how well seats, in general, are made. When I asked Old Town customer service how their seats were made, they referred me to their source, Dri-Ki Woodworking. There must not be a lot of seat failures, or people would care more, and sales reps would know this stuff.

Well made in general, yes. I have never seen a seat joint fail on a seat in a new(ish) canoe. But I’ve seen a couple fail on older, poorly maintained seats, from Old Town and Mad River and at least one other. Some failed when rotted seat rail ends failed at the machine screw and the seat came partially unhung, breaking at the joint.

All were dowel joints.

 

[frozentripper]

Mortise and tenon canoe seat, together with snowshoe-style rawhide lacing (babiche)... for me, one of the most enjoyable things to make there was. Photo below was found on Google, pretty close to the look I was going for with the stripper.. sorta backwoods back-to-the-land, wood toned natural, something that gets more valuable with age.

A gem, well worth spending the time.

 

[Guest]

Mortise and tenon canoe seat, together with snowshoe-style rawhide lacing (babiche)... for me, one of the most enjoyable things to make there was. Photo below was found on Google, pretty close to the look I was going for with the stripper.. sorta backwoods back-to-the-land, wood toned natural, something that gets more valuable with age.

A gem, well worth spending the time.

I do like the idea that there are no lacing holes drilled through the seat frame, and no staple penetrations in the wood.

That laced seat would look way much better than a nylon or poly webbed seat in a WC or stripper canoe. The babiche seats I have used, even the ones in manufactured canoes, have been quite comfortable, and drier than any other seat in/after the wet, if a little waffle-butted imprint.

But even following clear instructions (I hate following instructions) I know I would screw up that lacing pattern and only recognize my miscue after the seat was half laced.

I can staple on some pre-cut webbing on a finished seat frame in 30 minutes time and call it good. Even if the result is occasionally some garish plaid webbing

P1011538 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

(I wish I had a photo of the hot pink, orange and black seat I webbed for a friend when I refurbished his canoe, pretty sure those seats are still in use).

In any case the end result gets covered by paddler arse on a cushion, so apart from roof rack or bankside compliments and aesthetics it matters not.
P1011546 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Still, my personal canoe seats are webbed all in black; I save the distinctive plaids for friend’s and relative’s “surprise” boat work. If only they had thought to ask first.