Two older solo boats

[Erica]

I am still canoe shopping via craigslist, etc. This week a Mad River Slipper and a Bell Creek Runner have shown up. From what I can read, these are older Bob Brown/Cliff Jacobson boat designs, at one time the head of the pack and now long surpassed by others. Does anyone know how these compare to a Mohawk solo 14 ft?

https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/...503467572.html

https://orlando.craigslist.org/spo/d...509581519.html

Took the Winonah Advantage out on Fisheating Creek. Really liked how well it tracked - so much better than the above mentioned Mohawk. I had some trouble negotiating the turns - in places the creek is narrow and sharp. But when I got into an open windy area, I just have no control. It was gusty, so I would be going along fine and then whooops! the bow goes sliding away. (or the stern, depending on forward/backward lean.) I wouldn't mind dumping except for that 8 foot gator on the bank....

Erica

 

[gumpus]

I'm not familiar with the Bell but I can say that the Slipper is a hot and sweet little boat for the right person. I think that it was the smaller version of the Independence solo. The shallow vee design has less primary stability than current boats with a shallow arch but if you are a kneeler it doesn't matter as much...and you may actually fall in love with the way a shallow vee "carves" turns. It would not have the full on speed of an Advantage but it would have an effortless feel since it's a sleek and relatively narrow boat. It would be good in wind since it is low and also "planted" even with a lighter load. The price seems steep...but if you can get it for less it could be fine value if it's in great shape.

 

[Guest]

I owned a Mad river Liberty which was the smaller version of the Independence. Sorry, I never paddled a slipper--somebody here will know.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

IIRC, the Slipper is similar to the Liberty, but with no rocker at all, and maybe slightly wider? One of the locals was selling one a year or two ago. I passed on it after also passing on a Liberty, which I had paddled. The Liberty was about on par with my Sojourn (compared side by side) but felt a bit less capacity-wise.

Can't comment at all on the Creek Runner, but it looks like a nice boat.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Wow - 1250 on that Slipper! I could have had either that or the Liberty for not much over half of that, as I recall.

 

[gumpus]

I may have paddled a Liberty and not a Slipper. This link is not too flattering about it and also confirms zero rocker.

http://www.lakegeorgekayak.com/New Web Pages 2013/Mad_River_canoes_Slipper_solo.htm

 

[Steve in Idaho]

That one listed on Lake George seems heavy at 50 lbs. Maybe it's glass. The kev Slipper should be closer to 40 lbs, if the Liberty is any indication.

Not to totally diss the Liberty or the Slipper. Had I not already had the Sojourn, I would likely have bought one of them. But the Sojourn weighs about the same, is about as fast (as the Liberty, at least), and has a little more volume. Besides, when faced with the choice of two similar boats I tend to go with the one that is less pretty.

For a paddler about 150 lbs or less, who isn't looking for a racer or a river cruiser, I think either MR hull would be nice. But that price.....

 

[pblanc]

The Wenonah Advantage can be tricky to handle in wind. I assume yours has a sliding seat. You may need to do some experimentation on how best to adjust the trim to deal with different wind conditions.

The MRC Slipper is a pretty straight-keeled, symmetrical hull with the Mad River signature shallow V-bottom hull. It is reasonably efficient to paddle but not as efficient as your Advantage and won't be a whole lot easier to turn. It was based on a pretty old Bob Brown design dating back to the 1980s, called the Ladyslipper, and was slightly modified when MRC picked it up. It was really one of the first commercially-available, high performance, dedicated solo composite canoes.

I have never seen or paddled a Bell Creek Runner. It is also a Bob Brown design and was intended to be a boat similar in size to the Slipper but offering somewhat better maneuverability. Both the Slipper and the Creek Runner were sort of geared toward the smaller paddler.

I can give you some specs for the two boats:

MRC Slipper:

Weight: 48 lbs in fiberglass, 39 lbs in Kevlar
Length overall: 14' 7"
Width at gunwale: 27"
Width at 4" waterline 27 1/2"
Bow height: 17"
Center depth: 11 1/2"
Stern height: 16"

Bell Creek Runner:

Length overall: 14' 6"
Width at gunwale: 26 1/2"
Width at 4" waterline: 28"
Bow height: 16"
Center depth: 11 1/2"
Stern height: 14"

At the time Bell offered the Creek Runner they advertised a weight of 35-38 lbs for their S 'glass/Kevlar solo boats which were all wood-trimmed.

 

[Erica]

Thanks pblanc. I appreciate the additional information on either of these two boats. They are still listed and I am still thinking....it is about a five hour drive one way...also waiting to see if the Slipper comes down in price. Part of the problem with the Advantage for me, I think, is that I am not very tall and have a shorter reach. My husband loves the Advantage, so I am not in trouble for buying it. . I would guess I can handle the Slipper better than the Advantage because it is 2-1/2 feet shorter.

 

[pblanc]

The Advantage started out life as a downriver racing boat. Downriver racing canoes are deep for dryness. The Advantage was modified slightly for recreational use but still retained a lot of depth from its downriver heritage.

I recall the first time I test paddled an Advantage. I was about 5' 11'' and roughly 165 lbs at that time and there was a bit of wind. I recall feeling somewhat out of control paddling away from the dock and felt like I might possibly go over.

The Advantage might be a bit too much boat for you if there is any significant wind. It is fully 1 1/2" deeper at center than either of the two boats you are looking at, and being fully 2 feet longer, there is a lot more freeboard for wind to catch.

 

[Mason]

The Advantage started out life as a downriver racing boat. Downriver racing canoes are deep for dryness. The Advantage was modified slightly for recreational use but still retained a lot of depth from its downriver heritage.

I recall the first time I test paddled an Advantage. I was about 5' 11'' and roughly 165 lbs at that time and there was a bit of wind. I recall feeling somewhat out of control paddling away from the dock and felt like I might possibly go over.

The Advantage might be a bit too much boat for you if there is any significant wind. It is fully 1 1/2" deeper at center than either of the two boats you are looking at, and being fully 2 feet longer, there is a lot more freeboard for wind to catch.

If I remember right, the Advantage replaced the 17' C1 Flatwater, and was a detuned flatwater racer. The C1W(hitewater) remained in production for a while, and was the downriver racer with all the added depth (15")--it was first 16', but then lengthened to 16'6". That depth is pretty tough in winds, and can actually torque you over with beam winds. There was also an Advantage XL--if I remember correctly, the XL was the race version.

 

[Erica]

What I am trying to do, pblanc, is find a faster, sleeker boat to compensate for an older and weaker me. The Advantage really moves and for straight ahead paddling it is great and I can even make some decent turns in a twisty creek, but the wind does get to me. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a boat and the selection in Florida is more limited than up north. The website for the previously good canoe dealer in Florida has all gone to kayaks and paddle boards now. But a couple of guys I met on the Suwannee last week said they just visited there and there are still a lot of canoes. So I'll try to head up there next week.

 

[Mason]

Erica, for paddling in the wind, you might try adjusting trim using the sliding seat or ballast. If your sliding seat doesn't have enough range to correct, then a day pack/dry bag moved around will help immensely. If your bow gets blown downwind, weight the bow. If you're getting blow into the wind, weight the stern. Adjust your slider appropriately, and if you have some additional weight, push/pull it around with the paddle. It doesn't take much weight to alter trim in these slender boats. A boat full of gear allows lots of trim adjustability just by pushing your packs around. That's one advantage of solos over tandems (and partly makes up for the lack of horsepower).

 

[Guest]

What I am trying to do, pblanc, is find a faster, sleeker boat to compensate for an older and weaker me. The Advantage really moves and for straight ahead paddling it is great and I can even make some decent turns in a twisty creek, but the wind does get to me.

I never thought highly of the Advantage as a day trip canoe. In the right hands, in the right conditions, it can shine, especially with a gear load on a trip. But even at my size and customarily excessive day trip load a 16.5 foot solo with that much depth is more canoe than I need.

The Advantage is, for my usual day trip purposes, over deep for an unloaded solo in the wind, and over long for managing serpentine curves on smaller waters or radical wind ferry angles on open water.

That said I have two friends who day paddle the Advantage in a variety of conditions. Sometimes I am envious when they speed on ahead, sometimes I think better them than me when they battle the wind or tight turns.

About faster and sleeker, theoretical hull speed or length to waterline ratio is good and fine, provided the paddler has enough motor to propel the wetted surface.

 

[pblanc]

If you think the Advantage is a big, deep solo canoe, consider the Wenonah Voyager, Mike. That boat is 2" higher at both the bow and stern, 1" deeper at center, and a full foot longer than the Advantage.

You might try describing in a bit more detail the difficulties you had with the Advantage in the wind, Erica. If it was primarily a problem with weathercocking (stern getting blown downwind) or leecocking (bow getting blown downwind) you may find that with more experience and practice, you can learn to cope with that by adjusting trim as Mason described. Another thing that big boats sometimes do which I find harder to deal with, is to lock onto a crosswind and go skating sideways downwind. I have certainly had that experience in the above-mentioned Voyager. When the wind is coming directly abeam it can be hard, with all that boat sticking out in front of and behind you, to get either end to turn upwind.

 

[Mason]

When the wind is coming directly abeam it can be hard, with all that boat sticking out in front of and behind you, to get either end to turn upwind.

Brings back not-so-fond memories of chasing after a friend in a sea kayak in a Washington bay in my C1W (15" deep!) and trying to turn around with 3 foot beam seas and beam winds. A bit challenging.

 

[Erica]

Brings back not-so-fond memories of chasing after a friend in a sea kayak in a Washington bay in my C1W (15" deep!) and trying to turn around with 3 foot beam seas and beam winds. A bit challenging.

Now that situation really scares me, Mason. Challenging indeed.

Pblanc and Mike, I do get the bit about using weight in the boat to correct for the wind (and post from a previous thread have helped), and I was remiss in not relaying that information. The trickier part is that we frequently have wind conditions in which sudden unexpected powerful gusts toss the boat around. We are located on the Lake Wales ridge which is a "ridge" (barely noticeable to northerners) running more or less parallel to the length of the peninsula and is buffeted by winds from both coasts. These winds whip around, maniacally at times. So, what was happening was I had control of the canoe as the steady wind blew, but strong and unexpected gusts just sent the bow skidding. Brad, on the other hand, is having a much easier time of managing the boat.

The other thing I was proposing to use the Advantage for is the upstream paddle on the spring runs in Florida, which are beautiful and hard work. This is still a possibility.

The important thing to me is that I have learned more about boats than I have ever learned before. When I was younger, I could paddle any boat given to me and didn't pay a lot of attention to detail. This is partly because I was younger and also there were fewer styles and models available.

It has been an unexpected pleasure to have so much coaching from people who know what they are talking about. Thank you, all!

Erica