Symmetrical and Asymmetrical

[PaddleTime]

Hey guys,

Comparing canoes and curious if I’m missing something on this. Looking at manufacturer’s canoe overhead views, and I’m looking at some canoes listed as symmetrical and others listed as asymmetrical. These are all larger 17.5-18.5’ tripping canoes. Note that I am only considering the top of the canoe.

What I’m seeing is that on the symmetrical (listed) canoes the widest part of the canoe appears to be 2-4 inches behind center (center of canoe lengthwise, not the yoke).

Then, looking at some canoes listed as asymmetrical, about the same thing. One canoe listed as asymmetrical in fact has its widest point just about right on the centerline, perhaps an inch forward if anything.

Is there typically some leeway / gray area here on terminology? Are any of these offsets enough to really affect anything…would there be any difference with that small of an amount of asymmetry?

For example, would one expect symmetrical performance even if the widest part of the canoe is 2-4” behind center? Or would you go ahead and put this in the asymmetrical performing category?

Not sure how close it needs to be to be called a symmetrical canoe. As mentioned above the most symmetrical canoe I am seeing looking at all this is listed as asymmetrical.

Any thoughts on the better of the two for lake to lake heavier loaded tripping where stability = good appreciated as well but I know there are a couple other threads on that I’m reading through. Thanks.

 

[MrPoling]

Try this thread

Symmetrical vs. Asymmetrical Canoe Hulls

What are your experiences, opinions, wild guesses or prejudices about the relative merits of a symmetrical hull vs. an asymmetrical hull. You can be as technical or subjective as you like. Remember that hull asymmetry can be designed not only into the waterline, creating swedeform and fishform...

www.canoetripping.net

 

[PaddleTime]

Thank you. Have read that a few times now. I guess my hangup is that at least by these photos many canoes that are called symmetrical appear to be a bit off and others listed as asymmetrical are more symmetrical than the symmetricals. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Tryin']

It won't matter for you until you have paddled a good number of canoes and have developed a taste for what you like. Put three beginner men and their gear in one boat, and the differences in load distribution and paddler skill will matter orders of magnitude more than slight variances in hull design.

 

[PaddleTime]

I can see that at first for sure. That said, looking to make the best choice for when it does matter or have a good chance at doing so - I don’t really take a flip the coin approach on decisions like this or at this cost.

 

[Tryin']

This is your first canoe, right? How many trips per year will you use it?

I took four guys to the BWCA a few years ago. We rented a NW18, a B17, and a Polaris. By the end of the trip, they all had opinions about what they liked and what they didn't. There was no consensus other than the Polaris was too small for two men. Which we already knew.

 

[PaddleTime]

First canoe in a long time. First “serious” tripping canoe that will weigh less than say 75lbs. What I’m curious about is the nature of symmetrical vs. asymmetrical - as I hopefully explained earlier looking at options, I am seeing symmetrical canoes that appear to be asymmetrical - the widest point is several inches behind center. I’m curious if that’s normal, for example if the widest point only has to be close to center to be considered a symmetrical canoe, and if 2-4” behind center would perform as a symmetrical canoe would, or if it should be considered an asymmetrical canoe at that point for paddling purposes. Flipside seeing some asymmetrical canoes where it appears the widest point is about as center as can be. But I guess they could be referring to asymmetrical rocker or height in that case.

 

[PaddleTime]

Sorry missed the question on frequency of use: as much as possible throughout the year day fishing with 2 on lakes, longer tripping type trips perhaps twice a year, lake based.

 

[MrPoling]

I'm not surprised the manufacturer's pictures are confusing. It is difficult to take catalog quality pictures of anything, especially something as big and shiny as a canoe.

I'd trust their specifications rather than the pictures. Unfortunately most aren't detailed enough to tell you much.

I would only worry about asymmetry on the more aggressive canoes. Some of the most aggressive canoes, like the Minnesota 2, might have different characteristics in waves. But overall it's just one parameter.

I think most of the canoes you listed will be equivalent. You might like some better than others, but why will be difficult to pin down. And like'Tryin said, trim and behaviour will be more important.

Asymmetrical canoes, especially canoes with asymmetrical rocker, may not paddle backwards well. But most of the canoes you listed are too big to be often used as solos.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks. I was wondering if it was just the photography. Appreciate the response. Yes, I was thinking solo if needed but with weight. But most likely would be 2 minimum. I see a lot of people saying they like symmetrical so they can solo backwards but with 3 seats on the asymmetrical (if I went that way), I am at least thinking I could take that middle seat and paddle forward if needed solo with weight. That’s my theory. Would be rare if ever though.

 

[gumpus]

both are better, that's why I own both

 

[PaddleTime]

That’s the conundrum. If you had to pick one?

 

[gumpus]

I have never shopped for a canoe looking at individual design parameters the way you are. Every parameter you want to agonize over varies over a wide range: none can be generalized. Every parameter can be offset by other design factors. My paddling style is different than yours. The places I paddle are different than yours. I have preferences in canoes, not individual design parameters.

Suggest you mention the specific boats you are considering and get as detailed as possible about the places you will paddle, the loads the boat needs to carry, and the tradeoffs that you are willing to make....otherwise please copy/paste my "both are better" response to any future questions you may have.

By the way, none of the specs you see on manufacturer's websites are standardized and some aren't even consistent within a manufacturer that sells boats from more than one designer, so if you are comparing anything but overall length and overall width you're fooling yourself.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks for your input @gumpus, ha. I’m looking to evaluate this topic at a more general level than boat by boat right now and am curious on learning more about pros and cons. Some good reading in previous threads. I’ll definitely start a new topic if I’m looking to compare specific canoes and looking for a which one to buy recommendation. Don’t want get off track. There is no agonizing! I am looking to learn as much I can, yes to apply that to a purchase soon but also just to know. Hopefully this is the right place?

But yes, this would be for tripping lake use / some class 1 / a longer group type canoe application. Hopefully explained back in post #1.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

As mentioned, it's difficult to impossible to determine the actual form of a hull by a photograph - especially from the top. Without seeing the boat in person or talking to someone who has, I would take the designer/builder's word for it whether it's symmetrical or not. You may have to dig a little deeper to find whether that means the waterline shape, rocker, or both. Sheerline, you can usually see well enough from the side.

As for which is best? That depends a lot on the paddler. The way I use a canoe, I prefer symmetrical waterlines and symmetrical rocker on rivers. I think I prefer asymmetrical rocker and Swedeform on lakes, but not necessarily enough to outweigh other concerns.

I wouldn't expect others to necessarily agree. We don't all paddle the same.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks Steve. I’m starting to wonder if these photos are stitched together or something and that threw me off. I’m hearing more than a couple people say symmetrical is more stable / predictable. That sounds pretty good to me. Asymmetrical more efficient, sounds good as well but I’d say stability would be more important for my use…not looking for speed that’s for sure…more of big momma cargo hauler pickup truck type application.

 

[memaquay]

Asymmetrical in the consumer canoe market usually refers to a canoe where the bow and stern are not the same. Deferential rocker is usually part of the equation as well. Most asymmetrical canoes for tripping will have narrow bows and wider stern with more rocker in the bow. In a symmetrical canoe, the yoke might be a few inches forward or aft of the centre, but that is primarily just to achieve balance when portaging. The canoe is till symmetrical, regardless of where the trim is installed. If you are seeing a wider section aft of the center, it is not a symmetrical canoe.

Generally speaking, a large symmetrical canoe will feel more stable than the usual "yacht" looking asymmetrical. The asymmetrical might track better than the symmetrical, but once a certain level of paddling skills is reached, unless you are training to race, the difference is not particularly noticeable. For instance, in our high school club, canoe design does not determine overall speed, the skills of the kids do. As well, for inexperienced kids, the Nova Craft prospectors rarely go over, a J. Winters winisk will dump them if not heavily loaded. The narrow bow tends to make initial stability fairly touchy.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Thanks Steve. I’m starting to wonder if these photos are stitched together or something and that threw me off. I’m hearing more than a couple people say symmetrical is more stable / predictable.

The primary reason I like symmetrical canoes for rivers is that I find them easier to control in a backferry. That's pretty much it. I haven't had a radically asym tandem, but the most asym solo I've had - my Clipper Solitude - is so stable that I can stand and pole it. I fish out of it all the time. I don't think it's accurate to say that an asymmetrical canoe is necessarily less stable than a symmetrical one. Other things come into play.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

This might be a good time to repeat a truism.

"Canoes aren't unstable - canoers are".

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks all, I appreciate your time and great things to think on.