​Solo seat placement?

[Guest]

I want the leading edge of that seat about 4 inches aft of the mid point of the canoe

That raises an interesting question about the placement of a “centralized” solo seat.

I still like a solo placed further back than most people since I am used to the backwards from the front seat scenario.

With the tandem canoes I have soloized for tripping purposes (OT Penobscot, MRC Explorer) I positioned the solo seat several inches further back of center than normal; I grew up solo paddling symmetrical tandems bow backwards and that position still feels natural to me.

Conk’s 4 inches back of center is, I believe, close to the usually factory seat placement in solo canoes (4 to 7 inches +/-), excepting some oddballs like the SuperNova.

I could go and measure, but from memory I have placed solo canoe seats with the front edge between 7 and 11 inches back of center, and generally prefer closer to the greater distance.

In part to accommodate my old school bow backwards familiarity, but also because I have some beef to me, with big feet, calves, thighs and belly.

With my weight distribution that seat position puts the empty canoe a little bow light. If I went to my knees on a seat 4 inches back of center I’d look like I’d been torpedoed and was going down by the bow.

Sitting, kneeling, boat use, gear load, dog companion, hull width, cross strokes, etc all go into fixed seat placement. So does paddler physiology.

Folks who have installed a fixed centralized solo seat, what is your preferred back-of-center placement and why?

For that matter where do sliding seat folks located their seats and how; by measuring from the slider fully forwards, the middle of the track, or ?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Flab rules. Kneelers and sitters might have different seat placement. Kneeling can pitch the bow down.. Kneeling with straightened hips even more so.
I can however get away with more than four inches aft.. I can move stuff in the bow to farther up if its too bow light.
Ha Ha ever go downwind bow heavy???!!!

 

[Alan Gage]

Folks who have installed a fixed centralized solo seat, what is your preferred back-of-center placement and why?

For that matter where do sliding seat folks located their seats and how; by measuring from the slider fully forwards, the middle of the track, or ?

I usually install a slider so that gives me quite a bit of fudge factor. Since I build all my own boats now I know where the water line should be so before placing the seat I mark the water line and go for a paddle. If I were doing a fixed seat I'd install it at the point that gives me the correct water line, or maybe just a titch farther back to be sure a heavier person didn't bury the bow. With a slider I have it set so that at the forward most travel I'm just a bit ahead of the "correct" position and this lets me slide it about 12" backwards as needed. Since Sadie is always along the seat is nearly always slid all the way back. When we're tripping with a load the seat can wind up in multiple positions throughout the day depending on pack placement, current (up or downstream) and wind.

As for the relationship between the seat and the center of the boat I'm not really sure since I don't measure them that way. The last boat I built the front edge of the seat needs to be right at the center line to give me slightly stern heavy trim. I have other canoes where proper trim is probably 6" (maybe more?) back from center.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The seat should be placed so that the center of gravity (COG) of the canoe+you is directly over the center of lateral resistance (CLR), which you can loosely think of as the pivot point.

Of course, as you pile sacred Duluth packs, bags of pirate treasure and a bikinied Christie Brinkley into the hull, the COG and CLR will move around -- so you have to screw and fiddle with these things to maintain your COG/CLR equipoise.

It would probably be off-topic to discuss how to figure CLR or CB, but a sliding seat is a tremendous help in adjusting things by manual feel.

 

[Guest]

Ha Ha ever go downwind bow heavy???!!!

Yeah, that is getting into the serious no-fun zone, especially if you are riding any kind of waves and the boat wants to perl each time the bow is buried. The higher the wind and steeper the waves the less angle of control becomes available.

Thinking about my preferred seat placement I realize that another part has to do with my desire to use a small sail on downwind legs, where I am in the waves and the wind in the sail is pushing the bow even further down.

The most anxious I have ever been in a canoe has been with a strong tailwind and large following waves, even without a sail.

Probably the stupidest tripping decision I have made was to paddle out of Kinzua to Willow Bay with a fierce south wind blowing. The wind didn’t seem that bad camped back in the Hopewell cove, but once I was out in it there was no turning back and no putting ashore on the jagged steep shale banks.

I looked behind me once at the height of the following waves, nearly crapped myself and elected to stay within easy swimming distance of the east shore. In my mind I was prepared, maybe committed, to abandoning the canoe and gear to wash up somewhere across the NY line in the Seneca Nation while I hiked the shale banks back to my truck.

I would put that #1 or #2 in my list of dumbass paddling decisions. The other; electing to run my local trout stream in the deluge aftermath of a tropical storm. That stream usually runs around 2.8 feet on the gauges. It hit 12+ and overwashed some road bridges not long after we had passed.

 

[Alan Gage]

It hit 12+ and overwashed some road bridges not long after we had passed.

So how much clearance did you have under the bridges when you went through?

These guys did similar on what I presume is the St. Louis River when Duluth was nearly washed away a few years ago. Highest the river had ever been recorded. They're really smokin' along.

Alan

 

[Cruiser]

For the fixed seat I put in my solo (Freedom 16), I placed the leading edge of the seat 3-4" back from the actual COB, with the normal paddling position (sitting) this puts the paddlers weight directly in the middle of the boat (from a buoyancy pov).

The logic for me was that the paddler is usually the biggest weight and putting that dead centre means it doesn't contribute much to the overall balance of the canoe (fore to aft). Then I just balance with what ever gear I have with me, usually main bag behind and close, smaller stuff way forward.

Since the canoe balances about perfect without gear, going out fishing or just exploring, I don't have to worry about trimming. The solo originally had a slider, but I realized I never used it once it was set, so out it came to save weight and also to try a new seat design.

When I was building the boat, the research I did indicated are 2 camps on the slider question, one pro, the other con, I decided the slider made sense. Once I had some experience with the boat, I changed my mind, it just didn't seem to be required. I don't regret taking the slider out.

Brian

 

[stripperguy]

3-4" back from the center of buoyancy is about right for us skinny guys, a little more for those guys (and maybe gals) that carry a keg.
Remember, COB is not necessarily the same as the COG, depending on hull configuration.
Alan has the solid advantage, designing his own hulls and knowing all of the hydrostatic details.
Still, my preference would be for an adjustable seat, especially for varying wind/wave conditions.

 

[Jim Dodd]

5 to 6" aft of center, again my seats allow some weight shifting. ​ A few of my slightly A-symmetrical hulls didn't seem require any different spacing like some plans I've purchased.

I may try one of Alan's sliders on my CF Nokomis. I don't usually kneel, but when forced to, I like to think I can exit without hanging up my feet UNDER a seat.

Jim

 

[Guest]

When I was building the boat, the research I did indicated are 2 camps on the slider question, one pro, the other con, I decided the slider made sense. Once I had some experience with the boat, I changed my mind, it just didn't seem to be required. I don't regret taking the slider out.

We have had a couple of boats with sliding seats and I tend to agree about sliders, or at least how much I actually move a slider position over the course of a trip. Bow slider in a tandem is a different story, but in a solo, provided I had the hull trimmed to my liking, they didn’t do much for me.

More to the point, not how often but how far I ever move a solo slider over the course of a trip. I thought a slider would be the bomb for headwind/tailwind changes, and for sailing, but with the hull trimmed where I want it I can push a pack forward or back, or shift my weight an inch or two on a fixed seat just as easily.

I did install a slider on the last rebuild, but that was on a decked canoe where I needed couple extra inches to slip a 60L barrel in the stern before sliding the seat back into position. Even so, having test trimmed the seat placement in that hull, the 10 inches of forward throw on that Wenonah slider seems excessive. HeliumMan wouldn’t need it slid all the way forward.



I was also rebuilding that decked canoe to keep as a sailing tripper loaner, so the sliding seat was a near necessity for unknown paddlers of varying stature. For my weighty endomorph physique I need the slider nearly full back to trim the hull a little bow light.



In customizing boats for my wife and sons I have simply located a fixed seat apropos to their weight and length.

I do like the comfort of a (large, RidgeRest padded) tractor seat and have installed those as fixed seats in a couple of boats.

 

[pblanc]

Conk is skinny, which should probably be taken into account. For a hull with a symmetrical water footprint where the center of buoyancy is at the longitudinal center of the canoe, if I plan to paddle the boat from a kneeling position I place the front edge of the seat frame or front edge of the kneeling thwart 4-5 inches aft of the longitudinal center, and 4.5 inches is probably average. It depends on how much of your rear end you put on the seat, or kneeling thwart, and certainly, belly size and femur length can make a difference. A lot of either will usually require the seat or thwart to be a bit further aft.

For symmetrical whitewater canoes I position the pedestal so that the center of my hip joint is 4 1/2 inches aft of the longitudinal center. I have found that for symmetrical hulls this results in neutral trim for me. Another rule of thumb is to position your navel at the longitudinal center line or center of buoyancy. My navel seems to have moved forward in recent years, however, so this might no longer strictly apply for me.

Asymmetrical hulls can be trickier. Swedeform hulls seem to be much more common than fishform hulls these days, and swedeform hulls will require a pedestal or seat position aft of the longitudinal center. For asymmetrical boats I have found it best to float the empty hull without seat or pedestal in a pool and position 2" wide tapes at the front and back of the hull with the lower edge right at the water line. Then get in the boat on some type of temporary pedestal that positions your butt at roughly the proper height off the hull bottom. Move forward and back until an observer tells you that the tapes are equally submerged front and back and mark the position of you hip at both gunwales.

Again, these methods are intended to achieve neutral trim. With neutral trim the boat can be made bow heavy or stern heavy by leaning forward or back. Many choose to outfit their boats to be bow light.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The seat should be placed so that the center of gravity (COG) of the canoe+you is directly over the center of lateral resistance (CLR), which you can loosely think of as the pivot point.

I want to correct myself as to where I think a solo paddler should sit with respect to the center of lateral resistance (CLR). In short, I think the paddler should be positioned so that the middle point of a forward stroke is adjacent to the CLR. For a kneeling paddler, this means the CLR should be between the kneecaps.

I'll first note that everyone else is talking about paddler position with respect to the center of buoyancy (COB) instead of the CLR. Why is that? I think it's because CLR is a much less understood concept, because the COB and CLR will probably be very close to each other in a resting canoe, and because most paddlers focus more on level canoe trim than optimal bow and stern stroke control .

I want to clarify my position argument in terms of the less understood CLR, because understanding the CLR is key to executing effective sideslips and turning strokes.

The CLR, which should be basic knowledge to all sailors, is the place along the longitudinal waterline where a force will move the boat sideways without turning the bow or stern. For example, if you stood in the water next to your boat and pushed it with your finger at the CLR, the boat would sideslip with no turning (yaw) of bow or stern.

If you push with your finger forward or aft of the CLR the boat will still sideslip some but, in addition, the bow will respectively turn away or towards you. Hence, a force applied forward or aft of the CLR will produce a less effective sideslip because some of that force is vectored into producing bow yaw. That is, you turn the boat by aiming a vector resultant stroke force ("fulcrum ray") fore or aft of the CLR.

Now let's hop in a solo boat and do some actual and thought experiments with the CLR.

If you do a draw stroke adjacent to the CLR, the canoe will sideslip to the on-side with no yaw. If you do a pry (or pushaway) adjacent to the CLR, the canoe will sideslip perfectly to the off-side. However, the further that (the fulcrum ray of) draws and pries are positioned forward or aft of the CLR, the less they will function as sideslips and the more they will function as bow or stern turning strokes.

This leads to the design question of where the CLR should be. I think it should be adjacent to the center point of the solo paddler's forward stroke. This will give the paddler the control flexibility to use the first half of his stroke for bow adjustments and the second half of his stroke for stern adjustments. If we assume a kneeling paddler at a center solo station with a straight shaft paddle, the center of the forward stroke would be about at the knee. So, let's assume the optimal design CLR to be a point between the paddler's kneecaps.

This optimal CLR paddler position would, in most canoes, probably result in a slightly bow light hull in terms of COB trim. I call it optimal because, with your normal forward stroke, you have equal paddle reach room both fore and aft of the CLR to execute turning strokes in either direction with various drawing or prying forces of your paddle's fulcrum ray.