River and Lake Canoe Discussion and Input

[WonderMonkey]

I bought a Northstar Northwind 16 (tandem/solo) for my 2019 Quetico trip, but I sold it during the COVID fiasco. The 16 was a decent tandem and a decent solo, but it didn't do either really well, in my opinion. I really wanted a solo boat, but I wanted to make sure my normal tripping partner could go along. In the end, I made compromises, and I wasn't happy with my choice.

On my next trip to Quetico, I rented a three-person Wenonah, Seneca (I think), for our three-person outing. Outside of those canoe outings, I've done numerous recreational river trips with my roto-mold kayak and a few overnights on rivers with that same kayak. Now I'm looking for my next boat, a solo craft.

I've been enthralled with the Swift lineup but not enthralled with the price. Especially if I can make do VERY NICELY with something else. My original purpose with a new boat was for Quetico/BWCA-type trips. Then I started to think about how much fun doing rivers was, when I did them. Queue a few weeks of investigation looking for interesting river trips in a one-state circle in and around Ohio. There are many. So now, instead of looking for a flat water boat, I'm diving into ones that can do both. This adds a wrinkle. As I'm not the most experienced with canoes, I've performed a bunch of research. I think I have some valid thoughts, and I want to bring those thoughts to this fine group for input, critique, and alternative suggestions.

I will be in various rivers. Dragging will occur, I will go over submerged logs, and I will make mistakes in mid-class II rapids and below. The lakes I will be in will be the aforementioned Quetico/BWCA types. I have determined that I will be on 60% rivers, 40% lakes. Maybe 70/30 instead. I feel this split is necessary to know, as it is clear (is it?) to me that the bottom shape of the canoe is made for one or the other, and sometimes a bit of both.

I'm 6'2", 260 lbs, but should get to 240 lbs where my bodyfat is better for me and my knees. I'm 56 years old. I take two packs with me, an extra paddle, and a fishing pole. My second pack carries an Ursack (food), fishing tackle, and maybe something else if I want to distribute the load. I don't pack heavy, but neither is it light. I enjoy a double-portage, if one is needed. I use both a single-blade and a double-blade when paddling. Being first a kayaker, I want to still be able to use my double-blade if I choose, but I'm going to force myself to use a single-blade as much as I can to improve my use of it.

Using Northstar as a starting point, the choices are the Northwind Solo and the Phoenix. I've heard Bear, Northstar's General Manager, say that the Solo is for "lakes, and rivers", and the Phoenix is "rivers, and lakes". That should do it right there, but I have been watching reviews of both boats and the Phoenix seems to handle lakes well, according to those filming. For seat style, I'm up for a pack boat-style throne, but I'll probably go with a traditional style, lowered a bit.

So ... with what I've given for information, which may or may not be sufficient, do you have opinions on the Solo and Phoenix? How about other boats? Would you suggest alternatives, given my height, weight, and types of trips? I will investigate each and every one of the suggestions.
I will be going to Canoecopia this coming March (2025) and will get to lay hands on most of what is suggested, probably. Or probably not, what the heck do I know?

 

[Gamma1214]

I'm unfamiliar with the Northstar boats but two thoughts that come to mind...

1st: Have you considered building a wood strip? With reasonable hand skills it can be done in the $5-600 range and you could build 2-3 to find the one that suits you best and, maybe, let your tripping partner(s) paddle the lesser boat(s).

2nd: I'm unsure of your time frame but, if you can wait until the 1st weekend of June, attending the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous would be a great idea for you. There are usually several manufacturers that bring boats to test paddle and also many people bring personal boats for you to test (and, sometimes, buy). It's in Butler PA so about an hour from the Ohio line (a bit less than an hour from Youngstown if you're willing to treat speed limits as "suggestions")

Both food for thought, let us know what you settle on and why. Good luck.

 

[WonderMonkey]

I'm unfamiliar with the Northstar boats but two thoughts that come to mind...

1st: Have you considered building a wood strip? With reasonable hand skills it can be done in the $5-600 range and you could build 2-3 to find the one that suits you best and, maybe, let your tripping partner(s) paddle the lesser boat(s).

2nd: I'm unsure of your time frame but, if you can wait until the 1st weekend of June, attending the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous would be a great idea for you. There are usually several manufacturers that bring boats to test paddle and also many people bring personal boats for you to test (and, sometimes, buy). It's in Butler PA so about an hour from the Ohio line (a bit less than an hour from Youngstown if you're willing to treat speed limits as "suggestions")

Both food for thought, let us know what you settle on and why. Good luck.

I have not considered building a wood strip canoe. That sounds interesting, though. I think at Canoecopia they had a booth with a kit being built in it.

I'm fairly booked for 2024 and probably won't buy until late in the season, or at Canoecopia 2026. I have considered the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous and then for some reason I forgot about it. I will re-look at it and see if I am available when it's going on.

 

[Gamma1214]

It's always the first weekend in June and worth the drive (honestly, many people drive in from MUCH further). Stick around. I or one of the other miscreants here will, no doubt, post a reminder closer to that event.

What part of Ohio? There are many builders here who can answer questions / lend guidance if you want to try it and some may be close enough to actually help in person if you need it (but you probably won't... it's pretty easy once you get going).

 

[WonderMonkey]

It's always the first weekend in June and worth the drive (honestly, many people drive in from MUCH further). Stick around. I or one of the other miscreants here will, no doubt, post a reminder closer to that event.

What part of Ohio? There are many builders here who can answer questions / lend guidance if you want to try it and some may be close enough to actually help in person if you need it (but you probably won't... it's pretty easy once you get going).

It turns out we are on a family vacation in the Gulf Shores (Alabama) during that time.

I am just above Dayton, Ohio. Close enough to get to the event at some point, as it does sound like something I would enjoy, and also close enough to get to Canoecopia, which I'm attending this year (2025).

 

[Punkinhead]

I've never attended Canoecopia but my understanding is that they don't do test paddles so I wouldn't travel far to attend it if I were looking to compare canoes (it'd still be cool to see and talk to all the vendors though). I'd wait until Rutabaga opens up test paddles in their pond in late May or early April.

 

[memaquay]

I would seriously consider Gamma's suggestion about building a stripper. The one he is currently building is designed exactly for the situations you have described. It's also a solo that can handle bigger people and a load. Last serious trip I did with mine, I was around 230, and carried chain saw, gas, 70 or 80 beers, three packs....you will be fine with your load. Jon Winters designed the Raven as a river tripper.

However, you may want to leave the yak paddle at home. It has lots of rocker, not sure how it would respond to the double blade. I did give one of my old ravens to Jon Kelly though, and I believe he did yak it up with it, maybe check out some of his older videos.

 

[WonderMonkey]

I've never attended Canoecopia but my understanding is that they don't do test paddles so I wouldn't travel far to attend it if I were looking to compare canoes (it'd still be cool to see and talk to all the vendors though). I'd wait until Rutabaga opens up test paddles in their pond in late May or early April.

Correct, no test paddling there. What I can do is the "not in the canoe" investigation and petting the boat a bit. Then, when I feel I've eliminated certain boats due to whatever, I can test them out like you suggest.

 

[WonderMonkey]

I would seriously consider Gamma's suggestion about building a stripper. The one he is currently building is designed exactly for the situations you have described. It's also a solo that can handle bigger people and a load. Last serious trip I did with mine, I was around 230, and carried chain saw, gas, 70 or 80 beers, three packs....you will be fine with your load. Jon Winters designed the Raven as a river tripper.

However, you may want to leave the yak paddle at home. It has lots of rocker, not sure how it would respond to the double blade. I did give one of my old ravens to Jon Kelly though, and I believe he did yak it up with it, maybe check out some of his older videos.

70-80 beers you say? I'm in! I don't HAVE to use a double-blade, it's just what I'm most comfortable with and want to be able to fall back on it until my single blade use improves. I'll look into building one for sure. Youtube will get wore out on this topic.

 

[clemency]

Wenonah Wilderness would fit your needs I think, though they aren't very sexy and don't get much love here. Seat can be adjusted for packboat style, kneeling or sitting; hull should be able to handle your load; and it is a tweener lake/river boat--a little slow for big lakes and a little straight tracking for ww. T-formex, or maybe even flex-core if you want to save some weight and you're not bashing into things or dragging over sharp rocks.

 

[ppine]

We started with Grumman aluminum canoes. Everything I have paddled since has been a step up. I like big canoes with some rocker. They can handle tripping on rivers and for people that have learned to paddle they are fine on lakes too.

Sawyer Charger is my all time favorite at 18.5 feet.

 

[gumpus]

One question WonderMonkey...do you know how heavy the canoe can be before you might hesitate to load and use it?

Given your weight (240 + clothes + gear) you'd be pushing the efficient capacity limits of many solos so you'd want one with relatively high capacity. Both NW Solo and Phoenix and Wenonah Wilderness have the capacity you need. I agree that the Wilderness could be a great fit for you.

I think the Phoenix is a better choice than NW Solo since it's significantly more capable on rivers (I've owned both and kept neither but my needs are different than yours).

The used canoe market seems to be getting back to normal where bargains pop up regularly. You can use the forum to comment on used canoes that you find. I bought a used canoe last week that would be a great candidate for you, an older Bell Starfire set up solo. The older Bell carbon/Kevlar lay-ups were stronger and tougher than the Northstar Blacklite boats which give up some durability for lightness. The Bell black/gold was rated for light whitewater and my Starfire is 42 pounds. In my experience the black/gold lay-up with thick gelcoat can be dragged and can ram partially submerged trees to get over them with no damage but I have 2 Swifts and one Northstar Blacklite boat that can't be used as hard.

If you're going to use the boat in current and rapids you'll add a lot of stability/safety in a Phoenix by kneeling; if you know you will always sit I'd lean towards a solo with very high stability like a Wenonah Wilderness or Swift's Prospector 14. I'm a kneeler that sometimes brings one knee up for comfort but if I'm facing tough conditions (high wind, tricky section of fast water, nasty boat wakes) I always always always kneel.

 

[jdeerfoot]

70-80 beers you say? I'm in! I don't HAVE to use a double-blade, it's just what I'm most comfortable with and want to be able to fall back on it until my single blade use improves. I'll look into building one for sure. Youtube will get wore out on this topic.

I would seriously consider Gamma's suggestion about building a stripper. The one he is currently building is designed exactly for the situations you have described. It's also a solo that can handle bigger people and a load. Last serious trip I did with mine, I was around 230, and carried chain saw, gas, 70 or 80 beers, three packs....you will be fine with your load. Jon Winters designed the Raven as a river tripper.

However, you may want to leave the yak paddle at home. It has lots of rocker, not sure how it would respond to the double blade. I did give one of my old ravens to Jon Kelly though, and I believe he did yak it up with it, maybe check out some of his older videos.

70-80 beers! Man, you would have fit right in with the old Wabakimi Project crowd. Unfortunately, Uncle Phil never would have allowed the beers - too much weight even for overburdened WP trips. We had to make due with bourbon and/or whisky while looking forward to the Saturday resupply flights bringing full food barrels as well as a 6 pack of Blue on ice to be split 3 ways (Phil didn’t drink beer).

 

[Steve in Idaho]

My answer for this when I was actively searching for a used boat - because I am cheap - was the Phoenix in the IXP layup. This is coming from some years in a few different solos ranging from the flat water Dagger Sojourn to the river solo Mad River Guide. Knowing I can load the Guide down for a week long trip and still have plenty of freeboard and maneuverability for big class 2, I figured the Phoenix would be at least as good and probably better in class 2, while definitely better on the flats.

The only reason I'm not going out and buying a new IXP Phoenix next spring (after giving up on finding a used one within a day's drive) is because I found a deal on a used kevlar Bell Wildfire. Having dropped the extra weight I was carrying, I'm happy with that, but I'd still snag a Phoenix if one comes my way - if only for the more robust layup. My use ratio is similar to what you stated (70% river and 30% lake with average chances for scratches and dings).

I don't know if you'd be happy with a 14' Prospector style (which will lean more to river oriented), but there is a less expensive alternative to the Swift. Clipper makes such a solo, and I think, based on my Clipper Solitude, that their kevlar layup - while heavier and less attractive - may be more robust.

Another used canoe I think you would find to fit your needs might be the Bell Yellowstone in royalex.

 

[WonderMonkey]

Wenonah Wilderness would fit your needs I think, though they aren't very sexy and don't get much love here. Seat can be adjusted for packboat style, kneeling or sitting; hull should be able to handle your load; and it is a tweener lake/river boat--a little slow for big lakes and a little straight tracking for ww. T-formex, or maybe even flex-core if you want to save some weight and you're not bashing into things or dragging over sharp rocks.

I will look into that for sure. I feel some of those should be at Canoecopia.

 

[WonderMonkey]

We started with Grumman aluminum canoes. Everything I have paddled since has been a step up. I like big canoes with some rocker. They can handle tripping on rivers and for people that have learned to paddle they are fine on lakes too.

Sawyer Charger is my all time favorite at 18.5 feet.

I can paddle in a straight line just fine, but intermediate and advanced paddling is beyond me at this point. I drove to Quetico, get in a canoe, and start beating the water to death! Well, I'm better than that, but my experience is low. With the river trips I have planned I'll be able to practice other strokes in a low-risk manner.

 

[WonderMonkey]

One question WonderMonkey...do you know how heavy the canoe can be before you might hesitate to load and use it?

Given your weight (240 + clothes + gear) you'd be pushing the efficient capacity limits of many solos so you'd want one with relatively high capacity. Both NW Solo and Phoenix and Wenonah Wilderness have the capacity you need. I agree that the Wilderness could be a great fit for you.

I think the Phoenix is a better choice than NW Solo since it's significantly more capable on rivers (I've owned both and kept neither but my needs are different than yours).

The used canoe market seems to be getting back to normal where bargains pop up regularly. You can use the forum to comment on used canoes that you find. I bought a used canoe last week that would be a great candidate for you, an older Bell Starfire set up solo. The older Bell carbon/Kevlar lay-ups were stronger and tougher than the Northstar Blacklite boats which give up some durability for lightness. The Bell black/gold was rated for light whitewater and my Starfire is 42 pounds. In my experience the black/gold lay-up with thick gelcoat can be dragged and can ram partially submerged trees to get over them with no damage but I have 2 Swifts and one Northstar Blacklite boat that can't be used as hard.

If you're going to use the boat in current and rapids you'll add a lot of stability/safety in a Phoenix by kneeling; if you know you will always sit I'd lean towards a solo with very high stability like a Wenonah Wilderness or Swift's Prospector 14. I'm a kneeler that sometimes brings one knee up for comfort but if I'm facing tough conditions (high wind, tricky section of fast water, nasty boat wakes) I always always always kneel.

As of this point, there isn't a canoe that is too heavy for me, assuming canoes available that I'd buy. I'm thinking more of preparing for the future. I portaged a three-person canoe on my latest Quetico trip while wearing my main pack, with paddles and fishing rod strapped to the thwarts. And you are right, I want to make sure what I buy can handle a solid trip. The Phoenix and Solo are both at 340 lbs, I think, or close. I'll look at the Wilderness.

As for your suggestion of the Phoenix, how much lake time did you have in it? I'm sure it wants to spin more than the Solo, but is it a big problem? I think of shaky situations and I'd get in them more on rivers, I think. Though shaky situations are everywhere and I've been in them on lakes, a river has a larger number of them per mile, in my opinion. With that in mind, the suggestion of the Phoenix works, as long as it is "good enough" on flat water.

As for kneeling, I want to do that but haven't yet. I see where seats are leaned forward, pads are used, etc. I look forward to trying that out. If I kneel, my thoughts of getting lower in a pack seat like I use in my recreational canoe are settled. I did see where some people bring one foot forward and one back and that looks good for giving legs and knees a break. So ... I want to kneel, and I want to learn and practice how to do that. I feel it would break me out of my "sit in, roto-mold" kayak comfort zone.

 

[clemency]

I don't know if you'd be happy with a 14' Prospector style (which will lean more to river oriented), but there is a less expensive alternative to the Swift. Clipper makes such a solo, and I think, based on my Clipper Solitude, that their kevlar layup - while heavier and less attractive - may be more robust.

Forgot about those. Nova Craft also makes 14' solo Prospector. Was on my list as a possible river boat.

Prospector 14' Solo Canoe | Extra Responsive | Nova Craft Canoe

New for 2024! Our most multipurpose solo canoe model yet: The Prospector 14' Solo features a symmetrical hull with moderate rocker for responsive performance.

www.novacraft.com

 

[WonderMonkey]

My answer for this when I was actively searching for a used boat - because I am cheap - was the Phoenix in the IXP layup. This is coming from some years in a few different solos ranging from the flat water Dagger Sojourn to the river solo Mad River Guide. Knowing I can load the Guide down for a week long trip and still have plenty of freeboard and maneuverability for big class 2, I figured the Phoenix would be at least as good and probably better in class 2, while definitely better on the flats.

The only reason I'm not going out and buying a new IXP Phoenix next spring (after giving up on finding a used one within a day's drive) is because I found a deal on a used kevlar Bell Wildfire. Having dropped the extra weight I was carrying, I'm happy with that, but I'd still snag a Phoenix if one comes my way - if only for the more robust layup. My use ratio is similar to what you stated (70% river and 30% lake with average chances for scratches and dings).

I don't know if you'd be happy with a 14' Prospector style (which will lean more to river oriented), but there is a less expensive alternative to the Swift. Clipper makes such a solo, and I think, based on my Clipper Solitude, that their kevlar layup - while heavier and less attractive - may be more robust.

Another used canoe I think you would find to fit your needs might be the Bell Yellowstone in royalex.

The IXP layup is what I've landed on as well, assuming Northstar. The ability to handle the river bumps and grinds led me to that. I know other brands have their version, or maybe a re-name of the same, but I want that type of impact protection. It's good to hear that you have used the Phoenix on flat water sections and seem to be ok with it.

In reading your next paragraph, your use matches mine.

As for Swift, beautiful works of art, but I know I can get similar much cheaper. I'd want their Expedition Kevlar laminate with some other coating they have in order to handle the bumps and grinds like the IXP package from Northstar.