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Happy Caesar Crosses the Rubicon (49 BC)! "alea iacta est" 🎲
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Tradition boat? Just varnish, thin the first coat then full strength varnish at least four or five more times. Epoxy will not be good as it will trap moisture, and defiantly cause problems down the road.
Jim
Jim
Jim
Jim
I agree with Jim, just varnish.
But, being a Chestnut you will no doubt be tripping in it so I would only put a couple of coats of varnish on it...after all why carry more varnish across some portage than need be.
Only kidding, do what you want. Ha love those Chestnuts
But, being a Chestnut you will no doubt be tripping in it so I would only put a couple of coats of varnish on it...after all why carry more varnish across some portage than need be.
Only kidding, do what you want. Ha love those Chestnuts
Please stay away from epoxy. Its a bi..to sand off. Varnish wont stick to it. Neither will paint. None of the good builders /restorers use it. If Pam Wedd won't do it I wouldn't either. I am flashbacking to attending the workshop of removing canvas off an epoxied hull. Bill Miller with a flat axe.. took most of the wood too and Bill is good at removing canvas off old canoes. If there is a little modern epoxy that seeped into the wood.. you have a problem
There are of course difference of opinion
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ish-over-epoxy
I
There are of course difference of opinion
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ish-over-epoxy
I
?
Just about every wood strip canoe built is epoxy with varnish on top. Paint seems to adhere fine as well.
Curious about this. I always thought varnish was more prone to chipping/flaking/wearing and allowing water to seep in where it would be trapped.
I'm not saying epoxy should be used for cedar/canvas, I have no idea, just curious and I know you have a lot more experience than me.
Alan
Alan, what I meant was it the inside of a cedar rib canoe is varnished there will be some spots where water can sneak in and get trapped. Plus epoxy is rigid so as the wood moves there will inevitably be a separation someplace. A cedar strip canoe is totally encapsulated so that is a different story.
And yes epoxy can be varnished and painted, I do it all the time. But if the epoxy starts to fail dealing with it can be a nightmare.
Jim
And yes epoxy can be varnished and painted, I do it all the time. But if the epoxy starts to fail dealing with it can be a nightmare.
Jim
Varnish has a certain amount of flex due to it being "softer" than say poly. This has been why it was/is so suitable for marine applications. Also it is far easier to strip than a polyurethane or epoxy finish.
Dave
Dave
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Alan is right, varnish over epoxy and paint over epoxy is no problem what so ever!
As for epoxy being rigid, I don't agree with that, but I won't get into the details.
Like Alan, I'm not saying that epoxy should be use, but please say it for the right reason, that it is not traditional, that it is somewhat heavier, that would be somewhat hard to touch up, but if well applied, and applied in a way that is would penetrate the wood, I don't see why it shouldn't be use!
As for epoxy being rigid, I don't agree with that, but I won't get into the details.
Like Alan, I'm not saying that epoxy should be use, but please say it for the right reason, that it is not traditional, that it is somewhat heavier, that would be somewhat hard to touch up, but if well applied, and applied in a way that is would penetrate the wood, I don't see why it shouldn't be use!
Here's some thoughts by Mike Elliot.
https://canoeguybc.wordpress.com/2016/11/27/how-to-varnish-a-wooden-canoe/
https://canoeguybc.wordpress.com/2016/11/27/how-to-varnish-a-wooden-canoe/
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And here are some thoughts by Christine. Epoxy is rather short term protection compared to varnish. You need to use UV protection with epoxy or it will begin to break down. It also penetrates the wood rather well and is nigh impossible to remove to the degree that varnish is. Varnish you can sand off by hand, epoxy requires a bit more vigorous effort.
Probably one of the worst effects of using epoxy that you wouldnt expect is that it fills the gaps between the planking and causes the planks to buckle and warp. No expansion room when they get wet. That is my big beef with it. You end up replanking dang near the entire boat.
We did some repairs to an Evergreen that had been factory glassed like Robins Trapper was. A lot of the epoxy had broken down and was cloudy and showing the weave of the cloth, almost like it had been not wetted out properly. How will straight resin stand up? Who knows.
Bottom line, wood responds much better with varnish, preferably good marine varnish like Epifanes. It is a protectant finish. Epoxy is more of a structural item. The hulls of strippers are actually epoxy with the wood just being a form to lay up the epoxy on. So really, apples and oranges here. And really, you have to varnish over the epoxy....to protect it.
So regardless of whether you have a wood hull, or epoxy hull, the varnish is a protective coating. So use varnish eh, not epoxy.
Migwetch, I'm Christy from Winnipeg.
Probably one of the worst effects of using epoxy that you wouldnt expect is that it fills the gaps between the planking and causes the planks to buckle and warp. No expansion room when they get wet. That is my big beef with it. You end up replanking dang near the entire boat.
We did some repairs to an Evergreen that had been factory glassed like Robins Trapper was. A lot of the epoxy had broken down and was cloudy and showing the weave of the cloth, almost like it had been not wetted out properly. How will straight resin stand up? Who knows.
Bottom line, wood responds much better with varnish, preferably good marine varnish like Epifanes. It is a protectant finish. Epoxy is more of a structural item. The hulls of strippers are actually epoxy with the wood just being a form to lay up the epoxy on. So really, apples and oranges here. And really, you have to varnish over the epoxy....to protect it.
So regardless of whether you have a wood hull, or epoxy hull, the varnish is a protective coating. So use varnish eh, not epoxy.
Migwetch, I'm Christy from Winnipeg.
One of the main attractions of wood canvas canoes is the ability to repair/restore to like new from any degree of damage or neglect. I believe the trade off of epoxy in place of, or in addition to, varnish inhibits, to a large degree, this attribute for very little, if any, gain. Another characteristic of wood/canvas construction is its ability to flex in use. This allows the canoe to absorb much more punishment than one would expect. It would be counter productive to intifere with this ability. Just my opinion.
Dave
Dave
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I'll just say this, all epoxy are not the same, some have UV inhibiter in them, if applied thin it won't fill gaps more than full strength varnish that have been applied thick, epoxy is or can be really flexible.
Like I said I'm not suggesting the use of epoxy in W/C canoes, but we have to point out the real reasons. And certainly the only one that I really see being a problem, is the ability of epoxy to bound wood together, so ribs being bonded to planking that would be a pain in a restoration/ reparation of the hull down the road!
Like I said I'm not suggesting the use of epoxy in W/C canoes, but we have to point out the real reasons. And certainly the only one that I really see being a problem, is the ability of epoxy to bound wood together, so ribs being bonded to planking that would be a pain in a restoration/ reparation of the hull down the road!
Well, as an epoxy proponent, I guess I will weigh in. Thin epoxies like system three clear coat will not fill gaps. I use clearcoat as the seal coat on all my paddles. It is very tough, and with three coats of varnish on top, it will often look like there are 10 coats on it.
Here's a question for those of you working with wood canvas. I have seen some people varnish both the inner and the outer hull before canvasing, and I have seen people only varnish the inner hull. What are the ideas around this? In my mind, if the hull was completely sealed, inside and out, with a thin epoxy such as clearcoat, then the wood would not absorb water and expand and contract. This is not to be confused with glassing a w/c hull, but merely using epoxy as a sealer.
Here's a question for those of you working with wood canvas. I have seen some people varnish both the inner and the outer hull before canvasing, and I have seen people only varnish the inner hull. What are the ideas around this? In my mind, if the hull was completely sealed, inside and out, with a thin epoxy such as clearcoat, then the wood would not absorb water and expand and contract. This is not to be confused with glassing a w/c hull, but merely using epoxy as a sealer.
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I think Mem. and I'm not an expert, realllllllllly far from that, is as follow, the idea behind w/c is the ability to rebuilt the entire ting if you have to, and like I said, the only problem with epoxy even the thin one, is even if it doesn't fill gaps, it would still bound the wood parts together. and also unless you pre-epoxy all the parts, the area where the ribs get in contact with the planks, that part would be still w/o moisture barrier...
I think what is a common practice in the w/c canoe building, is oil inside out thoroughly and then multiple coat of varnish on the inside.
I think what is a common practice in the w/c canoe building, is oil inside out thoroughly and then multiple coat of varnish on the inside.
Wooden boats are meant to expand and contract naturally. Varnishing seals the wood but as its flexible will allow expansion and contraction with the wood. Next that goes on is the canvas or dacron. You do NOT want to have epoxy next to canvas and wood.. When it comes time to recanvas, the epoxy will pull the wood off too. You will wind up with a porcupine .
Waterproofing comes from the canvas filler used next after the canvas. Several layers of "mud" are used. This filler will come off with the canvas if you need to reskin it.. or you can sand it down as it will absorb paint if you want to recolor your boat. Mudding is actually zen like.. done it once at a canoe builders place
Then paint adds another several coats of waterproofness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoEUPHG9BfM
Waterproofing comes from the canvas filler used next after the canvas. Several layers of "mud" are used. This filler will come off with the canvas if you need to reskin it.. or you can sand it down as it will absorb paint if you want to recolor your boat. Mudding is actually zen like.. done it once at a canoe builders place
Then paint adds another several coats of waterproofness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoEUPHG9BfM
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Epoxy is FLEXIBLE!!!
Lots of different kinds of epoxies.. But this discussion has been all over the place. Cedar Strip canoes are essentially fiberglass canoes with a wood core. Wood Canvas canoes are entirely different in construction and makeup.
It is possible to use one of the many epoxies ( some are horrid and non elastic) and some work as a filler between paint and canvas.. The problem is that epoxy when in direct contact with wood pulls the wood apart. I had a small hole in a plank that I epoxied . I didnt want to pull all the canvas off for a half inch mar. When it came time to recanvas.. yep the wood stuck to the epoxy and a heat gun and scraper was required. I can only think of headache for a whole canoe.
http://forums.wcha.org/archive/index.php/t-9843.html
It is possible to use one of the many epoxies ( some are horrid and non elastic) and some work as a filler between paint and canvas.. The problem is that epoxy when in direct contact with wood pulls the wood apart. I had a small hole in a plank that I epoxied . I didnt want to pull all the canvas off for a half inch mar. When it came time to recanvas.. yep the wood stuck to the epoxy and a heat gun and scraper was required. I can only think of headache for a whole canoe.
http://forums.wcha.org/archive/index.php/t-9843.html
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I note Robins reference to Mike Elliots timely blog...
On a Chestnut cedar/canvas, please shellac and varnish only.
Bruce
On a Chestnut cedar/canvas, please shellac and varnish only.
Bruce
Well, seems to me an experiment might be in order. I've got a nice tremblay, varnish on inside is great, no need to remove, perhaps when I strip the veralite off it and sand down the atrocious outer hull, I will seal it with epoxy. Over the next twenty years, I will make a yearly post with pics. Something to look forward too besides retirement.
Hey Mem, before we canvas a boat we always coat the outside of the hull with a cheap varnish, like Helmsman's. It helps to reduce the water absorption of the planking. Used boiled linseed oil once, but never again. Took weeks to get the smell out of the house for one thing.
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