Mad River ME for Whitewater Tripping?

[SouthernKevlar]

Does anyone have any experience whitewater tripping with the Mad River ME?

I am thinking about a solo whitewater canoe based on a specific trip; about 130-140 miles, estimating about 80% class 1-2, 15% class 2-3, 5% class 3-4 and a few class 4-5 drops. It will probably be a 6-9 day trip through the southern Appalachians with available supply stops available so I can be travelling light. I am around 180 lbs. and will probably carrying 35-45 lbs. of gear. The river will range from narrow twisty headwater to wide shallow flats to constricted gorge (with Class 4-5 drops) ending in flatwater (lake).

There is an ME that looks in good shape for sale near me that I am considering, but I have never paddled one. Being longer (15’ 2") than most modern whitewater canoes and relatively narrow, I think that it may be a bit faster than the shorter canoes like the Outrage X. I hope the length may give me a bit more speed in the flats and class 1-2 parts of the river, but have enough rocker to handle (and enjoy) the rapids.

If you have paddled the Mad River ME I would love to hear about it. Thanks!

 

[stevet]

Owned one many moons ago….It’s a banana…maneuvers great but you better have a good efficient traveling/correction stroke for the flats if they are long. Never paddled class 4/5 but assume you will have float bags as it could take on some water there unless you take the perfect line. Others will have more specific info/experiences. Overall a decent, even though dated, ww hull.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

Owned one many moons ago….It’s a banana…maneuvers great but you better have a good efficient traveling/correction stroke for the flats if they are long. Never paddled class 4/5 but assume you will have float bags as it could take on some water there unless you take the perfect line. Others will have more specific info/experiences. Overall a decent, even though dated, ww hull.

The canoe will be set up with pedestal, thigh straps and full bags. I may try to make a "storage" airbag out of heat-seal ripstop or packcloth for waterproof storage if this idea this goes through.
Even though it is an old design, I'm wondering if it may be better(?) for whitewater tripping than many of the new whitewater designs which tend to be more on the "playboating" side of the spectrum. Though it is a banana boat, it seems to have a bit less extreme rocker to length that the modern whitewater canoes.
Thanks for the input.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

If you have any other "Whitewater Tripping" canoes to recommend based on my opening post, please chime in on this. I just found out about this ME, but I am open to other possibilities should they pop up. Thanks!

 

[Halpc]

I have an ME which I bought new in 1991. It is outfitted with a Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle and air bags. It has run the San Juan and Green (Desolation Canyon) several times self supported and the Main Salmon with raft support. Last year we found another ME in great condition at a low price and bought it. Took out the pedestal and installed a kneeling thwart- which permits sitting for a break. I enjoyed paddling it on a day trip down the S. Fork of he Payette River in Idaho. The ME’s handle well in Class 1-3, and have flipped me a few times in Class 4. I enjoy paddling it on flatwater also, such as the Green and Colorado, but precise paddle strokes are mandatory to keep a straight line. There are videos of Bob Foote running one in the big drops in the Grand Canyon, and the ME is capable of far more than I have tried. BTW I am a little lighter at about 170 and am now 75. Still enjoy the ME and my other canoes.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I have had a Kevlar Millbrook ME since 1982. I had a Mad River Royalex ME from 1983 to 1988, outfitted with a Perception saddle, which I sold at the Cheat River Canyon because I didn't need two ME's. After buying ME's, I also bought for solo whitewater a Perception Gyramax C1, a Whitesell Piranha and a Dagger Encore. In addition, I paddled many other people's solo whitewater canoes in the 1980's and 1990's. The ME remained my favorite whitewater canoe of them all because of it's speed, good initial and solid secondary stability, rocker, capacity, and 15-2 length.

I paddled the ME both solo and tandem, using short 30" end bags. It is fast because it was designed as a slalom racing canoe by John Berry, and dominated that sport for many years. I like the 15' length for all solo canoes. I never paddled the ME on overnight trips, but I have absolutely no doubt that it has the capacity to do so. (Especially the later ME with 15" depth instead of the earlier with 14" depth.)

The ME is very controllable with correction strokes as long as there is any reasonable current. However, it can become a chore on a lake and an absolute beast to control in high winds on a lake. I have never felt so out of control in a canoe as in my ME in high winds on a Maine lake. I just had to give up and allow myself to be blow downwind sideways, which fortunately was the direction I was headed. I think any other highly rockered whitewater canoe would have behaved similarly.

The ME's rocker and shape allow it to be paddled straight with a "carve balancing stroke" or "inside circle forward stroke". You do this by causing the canoe to carve to your onside, using an inside or outside heel, and then counterbalancing that shallow circular carve with an uncorrected forward stroke. This will cause the canoe to go straight if you can balance the competing yaw forces just right.

 

[ppine]

"5% Class 3-4 and a few Class 4-5 drops. " You say that pretty casually. I hope this is not a solo trip. I have lost interest in Class IV and V rapids after plenty of rafting mishaps. Class III rapids give me pause. I paddle tripping canoes with heavier loads and not a lot of outfitting.

You are probably a very skilled paddler, or one that does not quite know what you are getting into. I don't know you, so it is hard to say.

 

[Halpc]

I fully agree with ppine re Class 4-5 rapids. Just because my canoe is capable of making it through doesn’t mean that I want to try. At this stage of life the cost/benefit ratio does not pan out any more. I have friends who were heavily into running big water, life threatening rapids in kayaks. After near death experiences they gave up the sport completely rather than scaling back and enjoying more modest trips or going back to canoeing Class2-3 runs. It is kind of like mountain biking- I won’t ride certain trails that I used to love. The probability of more broken bones and torn muscles with the attendant recovery time outweighs the satisfaction and adrenaline rush from conquering a gnarly trail. The more mellow trails (equivalent of Class 2‘s) are still very enjoyable and are adequately challenging.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I fully agree with ppine re Class 4-5 rapids. Just because my canoe is capable of making it through doesn’t mean that I want to try. At this stage of life the cost/benefit ratio does not pan out any more. I have friends who were heavily into running big water, life threatening rapids in kayaks. After near death experiences they gave up the sport completely rather than scaling back and enjoying more modest trips or going back to canoeing Class2-3 runs. It is kind of like mountain biking- I won’t ride certain trails that I used to love. The probability of more broken bones and torn muscles with the attendant recovery time outweighs the satisfaction and adrenaline rush from conquering a gnarly trail. The more mellow trails (equivalent of Class 2‘s) are still very enjoyable and are adequately challenging.

I fully agree too! I have paddled this section in a kayak. I also don't mind running a sneak route (aka "Chicken Route") if one is available. I have also been known to line, carry, or drag over rocks to get past a drop that I did not like the looks of or get a bad vibe from even if I have run it before. I don't mind sticking close to the bank and avoiding the main flow if that's where the problem spots are, especially when I'm carrying my camping gear that I don't want to lose!

Most all of this trip will be on moving water with very little true flat water, and on the last night at the lake I might cheat and use a different canoe for the final bit, or not go all the way to the rivers official end in the middle of the lake. It is all in planning stage currently.

ppine: Thanks for the concern. I still would never consider anything above Class 2 casually. Although I do solo on flat water, I have a rule: NEVER to run whitewater alone. An old saying amongst the folks I paddled with back in the 80's was "At least as many people as the class of the hardest rapid". That saved our butts a few times!

Stevet, Halpc and Glenn: thank you for your views on the ME. That may help sway the decision when it comes down to canoe selection. I've got a while yet, but this ME for sale is calling to me.

 

[ppine]

The great thing about talking with experienced people is that they have some judgement and skills.
SouthernKevlar,
You sound like you know exactly what you are getting into. Best of luck and be safe.

 

[MrPoling]

I'm enjoying guessing which river. Plus you said to the "middle of the lake". This sounds like a "paddled the entire Sasquatchahochee" trip.

So the New comes to mind first, but it is too long and doesn't end in a lake really. You might get a trip that long on French Broad, but that seems too tame for your description. The classification sounds like the Chattooga, but it isn't long enough. Nolichucky?

How far north do you consider southern Appalachians? Cheat or Tygrat?

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I'm enjoying guessing which river. Plus you said to the "middle of the lake". This sounds like a "paddled the entire Sasquatchahochee" trip.

So the New comes to mind first, but it is too long and doesn't end in a lake really. You might get a trip that long on French Broad, but that seems too tame for your description. The classification sounds like the Chattooga, but it isn't long enough. Nolichucky?

How far north do you consider southern Appalachians? Cheat or Tygrat?

You hit it, but then moved on. Yep the French Broad! Headwaters at Rosman NC to Douglas Lake where The French Broad meets the Nolichucky River, then on to the confluence with the Holston River to form the Tennessee River. I may end the run at Douglas Lake, depending on who goes with me. I have some friends who don't like flatwater, can you imagine!
The upper end (sections 1-5) is pretty much class 1-2 with a bit of class C-1 thrown in, with sections 6,8 and 10 the class 2-3 and section 9 being the class 3-4-5 run. After section 10 the flatwater begins. I have day tripped most of this river over the years and use "Carolina Whitewater" by Bob Benner as my rapids class reference.
I just realized that I had misspoke earlier about the French Broad ending in the middle of a lake. I was thinking about ending at Douglas Lake when I typed that in instead of the Holston confluence. My error.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

I'm not ending the possibility of picking the ME that I know of, but yesterday I pick up an Old Town H2Pr0 (along with a Mad River Explorer that needs a bit of work) at a ridiculously low price. Although dirty, the Royalex is in great shape (the decals aren't even faded) and it's outfitted with pedestal and straps, just needs float bags and refitting some foam for ergonomics. I am going to give it a try and see if it may do the job. It is only 13'2", but the volume looks like it might do for a tripping whitewater rig. After I get some bags in it and run a few local rivers I should know.

 

[TimG]

@SouthernKevlar I think the H2Pro makes a great whitewater tripping boat. Not as highly rockered as some, but it’s stable, relatively dry, enough volume for your gear and the moderate rocker make the flats tolerable. I’ve never seen a bad review of it. My buddy’s got one and I dig it.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

Nice photo! I'm looking forward to getting my canoe wet. I need to get some bags before I can use the H2Pro like it was meant to be used!

 

[TimG]

I need to get some bags

Northstar is now selling 3D nylon airbags of various lengths that look just like the old Voyager/Harmony bags. My Harmony bags have been great. Lighter and tougher than the vinyl ones.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Yep the French Broad!

INFO – French Broad River Paddle Trail

 

[SouthernKevlar]

INFO – French Broad River Paddle Trail

Thanks Glenn, that is one of the sources that I will be using in planning the trip. They offer some nice campsites along the French Broad and there are a number of commercial campgrounds as well. That definitely helps the logistics when paddling through large areas of private property.

Northstar is now selling 3D nylon airbags of various lengths that look just like the old Voyager/Harmony bags. My Harmony bags have been great. Lighter and tougher than the vinyl ones.

I called the a couple "local" (1to1-1/2 hour away) paddling shops and both have various sizes of bags, so I'll be checking them out and probably end up with a bit of other updated outfitting too. I try to shop local when possible, but the online shops are a good back up.

I want to get it on the water as soon as my schedule and weather allow! I am really curious as to how this potential "Whitewater Tripping Canoe" will handle.

 

[recped]

I trip in a Mohawk XL14, it's seems similar to the H2Pro, I've done a bunch of 30 day trips and up to 51 days. I carry a lot of gear and supplies for a trip of that length, a bit overflowing for the first week or so until I've eaten most of the bulky food. That 51 day trip included over 300km of flatwater, the XL14 is just "ok" on the flats and less so if there is wind.

On these trips the rapids are plentiful, I run the 3's with ease and sneak the 4/5's, in most situations portaging isn't a viable option, lining the big drops and run the rest is expected.

I fill the flotation cages with gear, not much space left for airbags so I don't use them. My cages are set up with quick release buckles so they open up completely for loading/unloading. Some of the rapids I'm running are VERY long so I need to be able to paddle even when the water is almost up to the gunnels. If I remove all the gear from a nearly fully swamped boat there is only about 2 - 4" of water left over. Every other boat I used before the Mohawk would instantly roll if it had that much water in it. (MR Guide / Swift Raven). I love the big snub nose ends!

XL14 specs

Length 14’3"
Beam 32" At Gunnel 30"
Rocker 3"

 

[SouthernKevlar]

That must have been a full load of gear and supplies in a 14 foot canoe ! The XL14 and XL13 were on my mental "possible list" too. Those and the H2Pro don't have as much rocker as the newer, more play oriented WW canoes or even the Mad River ME which made me think that they might be good as a "do it all" whitewater tripper. Compromise across the board and do nothing well but everything competently.
Work has kept me from testing the H2Pro out yet. Hopefully next week I'll get it on the water.
I passed on the Mad River Explorer (that came with the H2Pr0 as a package deal) to a canoe-less friend today. He is happy to get back on the water again.