First vinyl pad Dring failures (and rec kayak tripper stuff)

[Guest]

I brought a couple poly rec kayaks into the shop for side-by-side outfitting comparison with a friends new 2017 same-name boat* and discovered that the vinyl pad D rings I had installed to secure float bags or gear under the (un-bulkheaded) decks on both boats were starting to peel up at the edges.

It has been ages since I outfitted those poly hulls, essentially turning them into solo decked canoes with raised seats. I do not remember what adhesive I used on the vinyl pads, nor if I should have) flame treated the area where the pad lay, and there was no sign that I sealed the edge of the vinyl pad to the hull is any way. My bad all around.

Cleaned up, poly hull propane torch flamed and G/flexed, with a piece of wax paper and some sandbag weights atop to re-secure the lifting edges. Once the G/flex set I ran a bead of E6000 around the perimeter as an adhesive/sealant. Should be good for at least another decade.

While I was at the boat rack, I noticed that the vinyl Dring pad on one old RX solo canoe had popped completely free. Completely and cleanly free, without leaving much trace of adhesive on the hull or the underside of the pad.

This one was also my bad. I had put the canoe back on the rack earlier this summer with the float bags left in. While not left fully inflated, when the sun hit the canoe the bag (which is in a full cage with two webbing straps) overinflated and pulled the D ring off the floor.

I am certain that I used Vynabond on that pad; perhaps the Vynabond was too thinly applied or too well dried before installation. Not sure if a perimeter bead of adhesive/sealant would have made any difference, but (my bad #2) I obviously never applied one. At least it separated cleanly and did not tear off a patch of skin from the canoe interior.

More G/flex, and a perimeter bead of E6000 and that one is good to go as well. I do not care about the permanence of epoxy on a vinyl pad, I have the pads locate exactly where I will always want them for float bags and gear.

*It was fun to look over our two soloized rec kayaks; a Pamlico 145T and 160T. We have composite hulls converted into deck canoe trippers that we use far more often, but the P145 especially is a great little boat. But not the same hull design today that it once was.

Modern day P145 shop visitor showed up and the first thing I said, before the boat was off the roof racks, was That is not a P145.

It was, but it is not anywhere near the same boat.

Pamlico rec Kayak comparison. The earlier generation Pamlico 145T with rudder was a wonderful rec kayak design. It was not a good tandem, but once soloized with a raised seat, rudder and sail it made an awesome plastic pocket tripper or day use boat, and is still one of the best sailing hulls in the fleet.

The 2017 Pamlico 145T model that showed up is a completely different hull, not nearly the same boat and, to my design/dimension preferences, not nearly as good a hull. Harsh words, but Wilderness Systems went and ruined one of the best decked poly hull designs around.

(Pamilco 160T specs also included below; the P160 is a heavy, (deduct 11 lbs when removing one Phase 3 seat and tandem outfitting), and not very fast under paddle solo, but by gawd it will hold a lot of gear once soloized and it sails like a champ. The P160 is the closest thing available to an inexpensive plastic Kruger boat. Either of those earlier Pamlico models appear used and cheap, with rudders, from time to time.

FWIW, Pamlico comparisons.

Pamlico 145T, 2017 vs 2000 model dimensions:
Length 14.5 feet vs 14.5
Width 31 inches vs 29
Weight with rudder 73 lbs vs 66 lbs (73 lb purported weight, I did not think to weigh the 2017 model)
Deck height 16 inches vs 13
Cockpit length 90 inches vs 82
Cockpit width 22.75 inches vs 19

Pamlico 160T (back when Wilderness still made it)
Length 15.5 feet
Width 32 inches
Weight 80 lbs with rudder (less 11 lbs if soloized)
Deck height 14 inches
Cockpit length 88 inches
Cockpit width 22 inches

Basically the new P145T is the old P160, only a foot shorter in length. Ylecchhh!

 

[southcove]

I had seen the new Pamlico at a nearby outfitter and between the garish red color and the modern outfitting, up on the rack it was hard to tell the differences between our 10 year old+ green boat and their new one. I read your post with a considerable amount of interest, as our guests typically chose our Old Town rec kayak for it's more seaworthy looks out in our choppy waters near the CT River. I sure have enjoyed the one we have, though windy days see the paddler taking a bit more spray over the nose than I would prefer. I wouldn't pay the current $1000-1200 USD asking price either. I would just add another stitch and glue boat to my small fleet over the next year. Another time when an update is a step backwards it would seem.

For some time I kicked myself for not picking up the Pamlico 16' instead, until I finally got a chance to put one up and take it back down off a friends car rack...too much extra weight!

 

[Guest]

I read your post with a considerable amount of interest, as our guests typically chose our Old Town rec kayak for it's more seaworthy looks out in our choppy waters near the CT River. I sure have enjoyed the one we have, though windy days see the paddler taking a bit more spray over the nose than I would prefer. I wouldn't pay the current $1000-1200 USD asking price either.
Another time when an update is a step backwards it would seem.

For some time I kicked myself for not picking up the Pamlico 16' instead, until I finally got a chance to put one up and take it back down off a friends car rack...too much extra weight!

I have not had problems with spray over the bow in either of the Pamlicos, despite having them out under sail in some choppy conditions. The layout in the bow helps ride over waves and chop.

The Pamlico 160 is a beast, but it is a decent decked boat for a big guy with a big load once soloized with a raised seat and a sail. The continuous rocker on both the P145 and P160 makes them very responsive among rec kayak designs, and aside from the poly weight the widths and waterline lengths compare favorably to some solo canoes. I did not set the 2017 Pamlico on the floor for a look at the rocker, coulda, woulda, shoulda, just like weighing it.

Post 45 on this thread shows the continuous rocker of those Pamlicos (the P160 bottom is flattened out amidships sitting on the concrete floor), and the conversion into solo decked & ruddered sailing canoes with a raised seat and sail thwart.

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/...-monarch/page3

Those Pamlicos occasionally appear used and cheap, two of my principal criteria, and the conversion is easy enough, largely mechanical and adhesive.

I was thoroughly unimpressed by the new Pamlico 145; wider hull, much larger and longer cockpit, 7 lbs heavier and, most disgusting of all, the new version has two massive full length tracking channels molded into the floor. By massive I mean like 2 inches wide and 2 inches deep. I have never liked the inconvenience of those protrusions inside a hull and with a rudder I would guess the tracking augmentation was more likely a way to stiffen the bottom of the hull.

The worst part of that style recessed channel is the noise. In any kind of riffle or wavelet large gulps of air join the water passing through those channels, so the boat gurgles like a dying elephant with emphysema. A nice peaceful paddle, ruined by a constant gugala gooogla gugala soundtrack.

While I am dissing that new Pamlico design the foot braces for the bowman are absurd. The pedals are the size and shape of a small ping pong paddle. Good luck stuffing anything up into the bow past those obstructions, including floatation. And the boat will eventually need real floatation, the existing (miniscule) flotation is simply 4 soon-to-be-lost pieces of thin blue ethafoam glued together and held in by a screw through the deck.

That is a lot of diss from someone who did not actually paddle the boat. Someone who really does not want to.

On the plus side woohoo, the new Pamlico does have knee bumpers on the edge of the cockpit coming (mine have DIYed minicel) and a bungee and hook to hold the seat back down while car topping (mine have DIYed bungee balls).

Which OT rec kayak do you have? I am obviously fond of that style hull for some purposes. With a downwind sail, rudder and float bags they are just good cheap fun.

 

[Guest]

Back to the vinyl pad failures and edge lift. I am not entirely surprised the vinyl pads began to lift from those poly hulls, and the pad that pulled free from the RX canoe was operator error float bag left to overinflate.

But those failures prompted me to closely inspect the Dring vinyl pads in all of our canoe, and all of our canoes have at least two, many have four (or more) Dring pads

Several vinyl pad observations jumped out. All four (er, three remaining, one pulled off completely) vinyl pads in the shallow vee Mad River are just beginning to show some edge lift. All three of those remaining pads are lifting just a wee bit exactly at the apex of that vee. I did not seal the perimeter of the pads to the hull with a bead of adhesive sealant, and that vee apex on the pad edge always wet with bilge water, dirt, sand and debris.

Sealing that transition edge has become my now usual practice, previously using Plumbers Goop, now using E6000.

Conversely, the vinyl pads in the boats on which I did apply that perimeter bead, including other vee bottoms, are still firmly attached on all sides and needed no further attention. I am more convinced than ever that a little bead of adhesive sealant around the edge of a vinyl pad helps prevent water and grit infiltration. Once an edge begins to lift even a tiny bit that continuing infiltration is an adhesive killer.

Same fix as before; I cleaned the area, tiny brushed (30 each for 97 cents at Wallyworld, the small area epoxy painters friend) some G/flex under the lifted areas and laid on some wax paper and sandbag weights. I took the sandbags and wax paper off every half hour, pressed the vinyl pad firmly into the epoxy as it set up and replaced the (fresh) sheet of wax paper and the sandbags.

The DIY Dings I installed in some composite hulls, using webbing passed through a nylon D ring and covering the webbing legs with wider glass tape and epoxy, are all as solid as could be. DIYed they are not much fuglier than a vinyl pad, and they are 50 cents each in materials vs $8 a pop for Northwater double Ds.

One kudos from the vinyl pad inspection. We have a 2004 Mohawk Odyssey 14* with factory installed float bags, lacing and vinyl pad D rings. The vinyl pads in that 14 year old boat are as well adhered as the day it came from the factory. That was some solid factory outfitting.

*The Odyssey 14 is, and with the demise of Royalex I expect will always be, my favorite shallow water river or stream canoe. It is a bit of a pig speedwise on the flats, but it will easily handle mild whitewater and it is very shallow draft; as a day tripping boat it will float across a dewy lawn.

If I am going to scrape my way down some rocky stream at canoe zero, with step out and drag gravel bar shallows, the Odyssey 14 will get racked every time. And it shows.