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Oswegatchie River, October 10 and 11th 2024

I think the more you lean the easier you will turn regardless of which way you lean.

True. For those who don't know, leaning or tipping the hull off level is often referred to as "heeling." To enhance a turn, you heel the hull with a lower body weight shift while keeping your torso vertical. This is also called the "J lean" because your body sort of twists into the shape of a J.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

Yes, the comments about heeling the hull into or away from a turn may be a bit confused. Let's say you are paddling a twisty creek and you come up to a sharp right bend. What I and yknpdlr are saying is that most lake boats will turn sharper if you heel the left side of the hull down—i.e., heeling "away from" or "to the outside of" the right turn. And vice versa for a left turn.

It doesn't matter whether you are paddling on the right, left or with a double paddle when you are heeling to the outside of a turn, although it may help the turn if you can do a sweep stroke on the outside, assuming you're paddling with a single blade on the outside of the turn. If your paddle is on the inside of the turn while you are heeling to the outside, you can of course switch paddle hands to enhance the turn with an outside sweep stroke. Or, if you keep the paddle on the inside of the turn, you can enhance the turn with a bow draw or deep C stroke while heeling to the outside of the turn.

A lot of canoe terminology is redundant, inconsistent and hence confusing, but some people call an outside heel turn a "carve turn" and an inside heel turn a "pivot turn." Highly rockered canoes, such as whitewater canoes, are usually heeled to the inside of a turn—hence pivot turned. Further with terminology, flatwater freestyle lingo calls an outside heel turn a "post turn" and an inside heel turn an "axle turn."
 
Correct, for example to turn left around a sharp river bend, paddle on the right side and lean to the right, the hull will make a left curving banana shape in the water. When I do this while solo, I will hear when the stern "breaks lock" with the surface as the bow spins to the left, completing carving of the turn left. Finish to end the rotation and straighten course with a firm J stroke still on the right side. The "lean" is quite the opposite of the lean you do to toward the inside while on a bicycle for completely different mechanics reasons.
 
I’m reluctant to post this because I’m no expert in hydrodynamics or canoe strokes…, but, IMO, different shaped boats react differently to leans. For example, a Mad River Explorer tends to carve the side of the hull, turning away from the side to which you lean. An Old Town Appalachian, leaned the same way, will carve the rockered bottom of the hull, and turn towards the side to which you lean. So, I think you have to consider the hull shape when leaning to turn. The same lean will produce different turns depending on the hull. Am I wrong about this?
 
True. For those who don't know, leaning or tipping the hull off level is often referred to as "heeling." To enhance a turn, you heel the hull with a lower body weight shift while keeping your torso vertical. This is also called the "J lean" because your body sort of twists into the shape of a J.



Yes, the comments about heeling the hull into or away from a turn may be a bit confused. Let's say you are paddling a twisty creek and you come up to a sharp right bend. What I and yknpdlr are saying is that most lake boats will turn sharper if you heel the left side of the hull down—i.e., heeling "away from" or "to the outside of" the right turn. And vice versa for a left turn.

It doesn't matter whether you are paddling on the right, left or with a double paddle when you are heeling to the outside of a turn, although it may help the turn if you can do a sweep stroke on the outside, assuming you're paddling with a single blade on the outside of the turn. If your paddle is on the inside of the turn while you are heeling to the outside, you can of course switch paddle hands to enhance the turn with an outside sweep stroke. Or, if you keep the paddle on the inside of the turn, you can enhance the turn with a bow draw or deep C stroke while heeling to the outside of the turn.

A lot of canoe terminology is redundant, inconsistent and hence confusing, but some people call an outside heel turn a "carve turn" and an inside heel turn a "pivot turn." Highly rockered canoes, such as whitewater canoes, are usually heeled to the inside of a turn—hence pivot turned. Further with terminology, flatwater freestyle lingo calls an outside heel turn a "post turn" and an inside heel turn an "axle turn."
I'm talking about leaning into the turn, like you would do on a bicycle. This would be "inside carving" as described in Tom Fosters videos. I agree with you and Ykn Paddler that an outside lean can turn sharper, but this is because it is a pivot and not a carve. In my view a pivot will turn quicker because you can do it without forward movement where as to carve you need to be moving forward. Like I stated earlier in this thread I was doing inside carves on the tight bends and they enabled me to keep my speed up more so than if I did an outside pivot turn. There were only a couple bends that I couldn't carve around and lost momentum doing a pivot.

For what I'm doing, inside turns feel more carved then outside turns. The boat turns easier and it feels more natural then an outside turn. The hull leans the same way a motorboat would, turn to the left and the boat will lean to the left.

Correct, for example to turn left around a sharp river bend, paddle on the right side and lean to the right, the hull will make a left curving banana shape in the water. When I do this while solo, I will hear when the stern "breaks lock" with the surface as the bow spins to the left, completing carving of the turn left. Finish to end the rotation and straighten course with a firm J stroke still on the right side. The "lean" is quite the opposite of the lean you do to toward the inside while on a bicycle for completely different mechanics reasons.
Well I guess that there is some element of carving in both onside and offside leans.

I’m reluctant to post this because I’m no expert in hydrodynamics or canoe strokes…, but, IMO, different shaped boats react differently to leans. For example, a Mad River Explorer tends to carve the side of the hull, turning away from the side to which you lean. An Old Town Appalachian, leaned the same way, will carve the rockered bottom of the hull, and turn towards the side to which you lean. So, I think you have to consider the hull shape when leaning to turn. The same lean will produce different turns depending on the hull. Am I wrong about this?

Different hulls do act differently, that's for sure. Even the same hull will act different depending on where you are seated. From a more centralized position the hull can turn away from the side you are heeled over to. That same boat when leaned over from the stern seat will turn towards the side you are leaning towards.
 
Thanks for posting and the pictures! I use an Ursack to defeat the mice but will probably move to a barrel on trips like these. Did you take this trip upriver? I looked for this river on the tubes, and it seems people are going UP the river. If this is the norm, why is that?
 
I looked for this river on the tubes, and it seems people are going UP the river. If this is the norm, why is that?

Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


 
Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


Thanks, I appreciate it!
 
Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


That link is what what I needed, especially since I'm investigating trips in that area. The description of the various trips that outfitter helps out on is great!
 
I figured you probably did this one, in a w/c canoe I bet. I was glad I didn't take a w/c boat on this trip. I would be OK with it with another person along. With one person on each side of the boat they can lift a lot of weight up while sliding it up and over the dam.

Most the dams seemed to be of a temporary nature, judging by how many were in the early stages of construction. They probably get wiped out by high water. I also noticed that the lodges were built high above the level of the water and there were a lot of ground dens dug into the bank at various levels.
I've been paddling the river since the late 80s, at times when the it's still icing out. It is the high water and the ice that takes out the dams.
 
@lowangle al - I've paddled both the traditional Oswegatchie route (Inlet to High Falls) and the stretches of the Raquette River that run from Long Lake down to Tupper as early as the third week in May. For years I would do end-of-the-year canoe trips with my students and these were the two routes we'd usually select from. The last time I did this was around 2018 but my guess is things are pretty much the same; although with the warming weather you might be able to get out earlier. The beauty of when we would go is that we'd rarely encounter black flies. Always an enjoyable time.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time....be well.

snapper
 
Thanks for posting and the pictures! I use an Ursack to defeat the mice but will probably move to a barrel on trips like these. Did you take this trip upriver? I looked for this river on the tubes, and it seems people are going UP the river. If this is the norm, why is that?
The mice are out and about in the lean's regardless of what you have in them ot your food protection of choice. Little cuties will run around all nite, up to and including across your face. On some leans that get a bunch of use I'll skip them and tent it to escape these dudes. My best result to date are to pack everything tight against one wall, using that as a headboard. Then I put one light pointing right into that corner. Same with the other side. This has dramatically reduced those midnight parades. When I did the Oz last October I experimented with a Luci light. Instead of my standard 2 light system above I placed the one Luci centered against the back wall. This was as effective as my 2 light system. I'll use it again. Not sure why I hate the little buggers so much, but since I end up throwing them scraps along the way it's all my fault anyway
 
Yeah, that's probably true. Do you have an idea when the river typically is navigable in the spring? How about the Raquette river, anybody?
I used to contact the local ranger to find out when the ice was out; it was usually sometime in April. One year he told me it was MOSTLY out; it was around mid-April. I was teaching at the time and had more than a week off, so I decided to go for it. I could tell by the access road, that I was the first one in there that year. At one point I had to stop and put the 4Runner in low 4WD to get through a section of the road. When I signed into the register, I was signing in on the same page that I had signed when I went in the first week of December of the previous year.

I remember walking down to the river and was amazed at how high the water level was and how strong the current was. Those were the days before double-blading a solo canoe, so I had my work cut-out for me. It was doable if I stuck to the inside shore of the river as much as possible to stay out of the strongest part of the current, but it was slow going. At one point, not too long after putting in, I heard a loud noise coming from beyond a turn ahead of me. It sounded like a large animal, so I figured it might be moose trying to cross the river. I was near the inside shore of the river, so I was able to pull over to take my camera out of the case for a shot. As I was doing so, the sound was getting closer and I was expecting to see the moose going through the brush in front of me, so I grabbed hold of a branch and held my position. Just after doing so, a large chunk of ice appeared from around the turn and moved down the river, scraping the outside shore as it went. To say that my heart skipped a beat is an understatement. I never encountered any other situations like that on my paddle in or out, but needless to say, I was extra cautious and on the alert as I paddled.

Although it was tough paddling against the current, there were advantages; you could cut corners and the beaver dams were all underwater. My first camp was at site #22 near the trail to Sand Lake. I stayed there two nights and was able to take a day hike into Big Shallow (although there was a lot of mud and some snow on the trail). After that I continued upriver and camped at campsite #11. I stayed there for 6 more nights and took day paddles further upriver, exploring the Robinson River and the headwaters delta (I actually pulled my canoe up over the huge beaver dam there and paddled around the pond it created). I didn't have great weather during the trip; there was a lot of rain and on the day I paddled out, it actually snowed the night before. Those were the days of mostly wool clothing, so the weather was tolerable and my Black Ice (synthetic fill) sleeping bag (that I still use) did the job. The paddle out was really beautiful, with all the trees coated in snow. Because of the high water and current, it was an easy paddle downstream to the take-out. Back in those days, I used to overnight on the way up and back at Northwoods Cabins in Tupper Lake, so that is what I did before making the drive back home in the lower Hudson Valley.
 

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