Raft. Guide was high as **** and broached us on the ledge river right coming into the drop. I got pushed out by another paddler losing their seat. D2O is right... I don't remember the CFS, but it seemed rowdy. Got pinned for a bit on the undercut. Had the whole panic/last thoughts/peace and then popped up and out.
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How much safety is too much safety?
- Thread starter Tsuga8
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Thanks @ErktheRed for the helmet rec and @Punkinhead for the ratings page. Very helpful to have some testing info - the difference in helmets was striking. I got the absolute cheapest NRS helmet, and surprise, it's uncomfortable. I will get a better one but I'm waiting until I can buy one in store and see if it fits comfortably.
I'm generally an 'always wear a seatbelt and a pfd' kinda guy, and often take Glenn's mindset of 'it doesn't cost me anything to wear a pfd always instead of sometimes'. As others have said, the pockets on my pfd for phone and keys make it even more of a habit.
But, there has to be some limit to things based on risk probability as well. You _could_ hit your head and get concussed if you trip walking down the street - I'm not wearing a helmet while walking down the street. I initially posted this in the poling section because I specifically wanted to hear from polers to get a sense of how much head injuries actually happen in that particular activity. The stories of poles getting stuck were certainly informative, thanks to those that shared them. I did pretty-well absorb the lesson that if the pole wedges, let go! But still, everyone makes mistakes.
I haven't been wearing a helmet when poling sluggish swamps - due to the lack of current I think the pole bounce-back issue is unlikely. Though I have gotten poles stuck in muck the potential energy for springing back isn't there with minimal current. But there's nothing to stop me from hitting a submerged log unexpectedly, falling, and whacking my head on the gunnel.
There's also trade-off btwn types of risk. The helmet precludes my broad-brim sun hat. What's more likely, a concussion or skin cancer? One risk is cumulative and the other acute. It's all trade-offs in probability.
I'm generally an 'always wear a seatbelt and a pfd' kinda guy, and often take Glenn's mindset of 'it doesn't cost me anything to wear a pfd always instead of sometimes'. As others have said, the pockets on my pfd for phone and keys make it even more of a habit.
But, there has to be some limit to things based on risk probability as well. You _could_ hit your head and get concussed if you trip walking down the street - I'm not wearing a helmet while walking down the street. I initially posted this in the poling section because I specifically wanted to hear from polers to get a sense of how much head injuries actually happen in that particular activity. The stories of poles getting stuck were certainly informative, thanks to those that shared them. I did pretty-well absorb the lesson that if the pole wedges, let go! But still, everyone makes mistakes.
I haven't been wearing a helmet when poling sluggish swamps - due to the lack of current I think the pole bounce-back issue is unlikely. Though I have gotten poles stuck in muck the potential energy for springing back isn't there with minimal current. But there's nothing to stop me from hitting a submerged log unexpectedly, falling, and whacking my head on the gunnel.
There's also trade-off btwn types of risk. The helmet precludes my broad-brim sun hat. What's more likely, a concussion or skin cancer? One risk is cumulative and the other acute. It's all trade-offs in probability.
Since this is now in the general safety section: How come more solo canoeists don't use self-righting Type I pfds? Is there a cost to doing so? I've never actually tried one, not sure if they make paddling style Type I's.
I have not tried on a Type 1 PFD in quite a while, but the ones I remember were bulky and were not well fitted to the body for easy movement.
The primary cons of a Type 1—the horse collar being the most common example—are bulk and the absence of pockets. The primary benefit is to float an unconscious paddler face up to prevent unconscious drowning. Aside from being the safety norm for commercial raft passengers and young children, I think the most logical market for a Type 1 would be someone who has a higher than normal probability to become unconscious while paddling.
Who is that?
I suppose it would be someone who has a medical issue that could result in a heightened probability of unconsciousness or lack of body control. What comes to my mind would be people, especially the elderly, who have higher than normal cardiac, stroke, diabetic hypoglycemia, epilepsy or neurological risk profiles. Other folks may think of some additional medical risk conditions of this nature.
Could that be polers? Whitewater kayakers that stay upside in boats with heads bouncing off rocks? (And yes, those with medical conditions.)
How many have here personal experience with someone going unconscious while paddling?
There's also the high-consequence/low-probability argument. If you're solo, being unconscious in the water is a death sentence, even if it's very unlikely to happen.
Thanks for posting this so I don't have to.
Just so people know I'm not totally crazy, I do wear a PFD always in moving water (above class I or very simple Class II) or on flat water with windy/wavy conditions. I do not use a helmet when paddling.
On the other hand when I'm speed skating I do wear a helmet because Ice is VERY hard compared to water. I was into speed skating in the 90's and had several injuries but they were all leg/foot things, I never actually hit my head but it was always a possibility.
When racing on the YRQ, there are a couple of times when you and your team are paddling continuously for hours through the entire "night" (it never gets totally dark there in June), At between 2-4AM your alertness and metabolism are at its lowest level point. I can attest that it is possible to sleep, essentially going unconscious while continuing to paddle, even though feeling a bit tipsy and off balance. Luckily, we tend to find ourselves to be in those stretches of the river where it is wide open and a high level of navigation alertness can be relaxed somewhat. As bow paddler, I feel that I maintain about 80% normal daytime race cadence for the paddlers behind me in our voyageur or C4 canoe, and I even respond to the occasional "hut" calls from either the stern or the padder just ahead of the stern paddler. A concern is the possibility of falling out, but though wobbly, no one ever did. Sometimes we take timed turns quietly resting for about 10 minutes each. Of course, wearing of a PFD is always mandatory 100% by all.
This is one reason, I suppose, why solo racers are required by the rules to constantly travel alongside a partner of one other solo racer. Some racers will pull over to land for an hour or so of rest, and we did see a few who did that, as is encouraged by the race director, but we never did.
This is one reason, I suppose, why solo racers are required by the rules to constantly travel alongside a partner of one other solo racer. Some racers will pull over to land for an hour or so of rest, and we did see a few who did that, as is encouraged by the race director, but we never did.
Another unconsciousness or paralysis scenario could be a solo paddler capsizing far away from shore in very cold water with inadequate insulation for long immersion. As that person goes into hypothermia, he or she might roll over face down in the water in a Type 3/Level 70 life vest and drown because of the loss of consciousness and/or muscle control. A Type 5 jacket might keep a hypothermic swimmer alive until rescue comes.
How likely are any of these face drowning scenarios? Not very, for the vast majority of paddlers. At my age (80), and as a solo paddler almost all the time, I would seriously consider a Type 5 if I had a heart condition or was a stroke survivor.
How likely are any of these face drowning scenarios? Not very, for the vast majority of paddlers. At my age (80), and as a solo paddler almost all the time, I would seriously consider a Type 5 if I had a heart condition or was a stroke survivor.
This isn't in a canoe but it's certainly a possible scenario. I went fishing with some coworkers who were alcoholics and it wasn't pretty. It was an overnight trip, where we slept on the boat miles from shore. We got a lot of fish, but I would never do it again.
There's a couple of ways around that trade off, and they're pretty inexpensive. My helmet covers my ears. I have installed a very generously sized Salamander bill that is held in place with Velcro. A high collared sun shirt or summer weight neck gaiter protects the back of my neck. Some of those gaiters are made so you can pull them clear up over your ears and lower face.
I went rafting on a local river with a guy that had a new cataraft. He wore a PFD and a helmet, but knew little about running his boat. We came to the hardest set of rapids on the Truckee River. There were some fatals there in previous years. He said he didn't scout rapids. I said "then let me out." I took his throw line with me. He was nearly launched out of his boat. I looked inside the throw bag and it was coiled up and stuffed. I never went on a river with that guy again.
I went hunting with a guy that struggled with alcohol. We literally fell in the camp fire and I had to pull him out. I took him into the tent to go to sleep. He was on the floor and never made it to his sleeping bag. He said some very inappropriate things. I went to town to stay in a motel for a night to cool off. I came back and finished the hunt but never went hunting with him again.
He also insisted on keeping a round in the chamber of his Remington bolt action rifle. It was the model that has a reputation for going off without pulling the trigger. Never again.
He also insisted on keeping a round in the chamber of his Remington bolt action rifle. It was the model that has a reputation for going off without pulling the trigger. Never again.
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I had a severely diabetic paddling buddy that went into a low sugar coma while we were on the water; he just slumped over but was able to stay in his boat. Fortunately I was able to tow him back to our put-in. He was religious about wearing a PFD even though he was a former All American swimmer. He also paddled solo sometimes and he accepted the risks. Now I carry glucose tablets in my first aid kit.
The one time I needed my PFD was on a long day trip where I had to duck under about a dozen trees on my way upstream and on the way back I was high kneeling and fast approaching a tree that I remembered having plenty of clearance and by the time I realized it was one with super low clearance it was too late to fully kneel so I ended up crashing straight into the tree with my chest (as the bow went under) and I think the PFD cushioned the blow just enough because I was close to blacking out (with zero chance of getting help). My takeaway is that you don't really know all the risks that can pop up...I sure hadn't prepared for a collision with a tree but it was a good thing I had my PFD on even though it was summer on a small river and I'm a good swimmer. Not trying to lecture anyone, just sharing an experience.
I have two Adirondack 90 mile Canoe Classic race stories:
1. At the end of the famous 2.5 mile extremely winding Brown's Tract wetlands narrow stream leading into Raquette Lake, we pass under a roadway bridge and immediately drop down in faster current over a large beaver dam with a sharp left turn to enter the big lake. There are always hundreds of observers on the bridge cheering while watching the parade of zig-zagging heads bobbing through the swampland as the paddlers approach. It was a higher than usual water year and everyone paddling had to duck lower more than usual to pass under the bridge.
I was paddling C2 not far behind a voyageur canoe of 6 paddlers with the stern paddler sitting on an elevated seat higher than the rest of his crew. Suddenly I heard what sounded exactly like someone whacked a baseball bat hard against a steel girder under the bridge. It rang like a bell. I looked up to see the stern paddler falling backwards into the water as his canoe immediately next headed over the beaver dam heading into the big lake. There were so many people in and alongside the bridge to jump in the water to immediately help him out. After being checked out he continued the race only a little (or maybe a lot) shaken if not stirred.
2. Another year on the 90 miler I was racing in a C4 with my usual Yukon team, with one substitute paddler, Rich. Rich drove to my camp the day prior, had a traditional pre-race meal, spent the night, and left his car there, about 30 minutes from race start. Rich was by all accounts an excellent paddler and experienced racer for many years. I have paddled separately in many races with him paddling with others I knew.
The 90 miler is a staged race over three days. Crew members will frequently check on each other while paddling, no matter who is paddling: are you eating, are you drinking? Sitting in the bow I could not see what the other three behind me were doing. Well into Day 1, Rich began talking gibberish, and was having trouble keeping up on the portages (four on Day 1). He began asking questions that he surely should have known the answer to, such as how did he get there, why was he there, and where was his car as his paddling efffort became more more minimal. Rich, are you eatingg and drinking? "Yes", he would respond. It was spooky and we wondered if he would fall out of the canoe. At the end of 35 miles of Day1, he stumbled out of the canoe and we assisted him to the nearby fire house race medical facility. A forest Ranger was there and gave him a powdered electrolyte in water and Gatorade. An EMT was called in to more formally check him out. Still acting confused, we fed him and gave him more electrolytes with plenty to drink. No manjor change for the better and no other diagnosis from the EMT.
Rich continued to insist he was ok and refused further analysis. He insisted on traveling with the team to the next town and motel room to get ready for Day 2’s race. During the half hour drive we became increasingly concerned at his condition and his repeated confused questioning about where he was and how did he get there, concerned about his car. Was he having a stroke? It reminded me of my late aunt with Alzheimer’s Disease and her state of mind.
After we arrived at the motel, he checked in and continued to insist he was ok, when he clearly was not. We next called for an ambulance to give Rich advanced medical checks. We also called his son from 3 hours away, who later met him at the local hospital and took him home to his own local hospital where whe later leeaned tha he remained for a couple of days. Luckily a kindergarten friend of mine was spectating the race and was available to paddle in his first “55 miler” to complete the canoe race for the next two days. With Rich, nothing wrong was conclusively found, other than dehydration. In the several years since, he has continued to race the “90” and other canoe races with no further apparent lasting or repeated effects (but not in my boat).
1. At the end of the famous 2.5 mile extremely winding Brown's Tract wetlands narrow stream leading into Raquette Lake, we pass under a roadway bridge and immediately drop down in faster current over a large beaver dam with a sharp left turn to enter the big lake. There are always hundreds of observers on the bridge cheering while watching the parade of zig-zagging heads bobbing through the swampland as the paddlers approach. It was a higher than usual water year and everyone paddling had to duck lower more than usual to pass under the bridge.
I was paddling C2 not far behind a voyageur canoe of 6 paddlers with the stern paddler sitting on an elevated seat higher than the rest of his crew. Suddenly I heard what sounded exactly like someone whacked a baseball bat hard against a steel girder under the bridge. It rang like a bell. I looked up to see the stern paddler falling backwards into the water as his canoe immediately next headed over the beaver dam heading into the big lake. There were so many people in and alongside the bridge to jump in the water to immediately help him out. After being checked out he continued the race only a little (or maybe a lot) shaken if not stirred.
2. Another year on the 90 miler I was racing in a C4 with my usual Yukon team, with one substitute paddler, Rich. Rich drove to my camp the day prior, had a traditional pre-race meal, spent the night, and left his car there, about 30 minutes from race start. Rich was by all accounts an excellent paddler and experienced racer for many years. I have paddled separately in many races with him paddling with others I knew.
The 90 miler is a staged race over three days. Crew members will frequently check on each other while paddling, no matter who is paddling: are you eating, are you drinking? Sitting in the bow I could not see what the other three behind me were doing. Well into Day 1, Rich began talking gibberish, and was having trouble keeping up on the portages (four on Day 1). He began asking questions that he surely should have known the answer to, such as how did he get there, why was he there, and where was his car as his paddling efffort became more more minimal. Rich, are you eatingg and drinking? "Yes", he would respond. It was spooky and we wondered if he would fall out of the canoe. At the end of 35 miles of Day1, he stumbled out of the canoe and we assisted him to the nearby fire house race medical facility. A forest Ranger was there and gave him a powdered electrolyte in water and Gatorade. An EMT was called in to more formally check him out. Still acting confused, we fed him and gave him more electrolytes with plenty to drink. No manjor change for the better and no other diagnosis from the EMT.
Rich continued to insist he was ok and refused further analysis. He insisted on traveling with the team to the next town and motel room to get ready for Day 2’s race. During the half hour drive we became increasingly concerned at his condition and his repeated confused questioning about where he was and how did he get there, concerned about his car. Was he having a stroke? It reminded me of my late aunt with Alzheimer’s Disease and her state of mind.
After we arrived at the motel, he checked in and continued to insist he was ok, when he clearly was not. We next called for an ambulance to give Rich advanced medical checks. We also called his son from 3 hours away, who later met him at the local hospital and took him home to his own local hospital where whe later leeaned tha he remained for a couple of days. Luckily a kindergarten friend of mine was spectating the race and was available to paddle in his first “55 miler” to complete the canoe race for the next two days. With Rich, nothing wrong was conclusively found, other than dehydration. In the several years since, he has continued to race the “90” and other canoe races with no further apparent lasting or repeated effects (but not in my boat).
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