The New Swift/DY Redesign of the Dragonfly

Tsuga8 said:

I see I've asked a question with vocabulary that's vague in loaded ways. "Whitewater capable" might mean downriver trips with a couple Class II rapids, or might mean playboating, or pushing the envelope in Class IV water.

For me personally, what gumpus described matches the conditions I tend to get myself into:

I have now dragged my NS blacklite over a couple logs, gravel shoals, and beaver dams, usually with me NOT in it unless I get distracted and miss a submerged rock or log in flatwater. However, despite reassurances from others, I still can't bring myself to use the blacklite or my white gold Bell on the rocky swiftwater creeks I pole on. There might be Class I at most, but mostly it's bumping gently and scraping over rocks as I practice poling. I suppose I look for more abrasion resistance than impact resistance. I'm also not tripping in places where catastrophic boat failure means having to phone a float plane. Anyhoo, I eye up Swifts occasionally but the high price combined with my bony creek and stumpy swamp tendencies always scares me away.

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A friend's Blacklite boat developed a soft spot after ramming partially submerged logs many times and also required coating with epoxy to cover deep scratches....same usage that my black/gold Bell has had for 25 years with zero maintenance. Older Bells have thick gelcoat (I think you can still order it on a Northstar...it may add 5 pounds) so can take lots of abrasion. In my experience (including being lifted by a piece of rebar) Swift's have a nice, medium-thick gelcoat so are almost as good for abrasion resistance but one could damage a Swift on a hard rock impact more easily than a Bell. Swift seems to have some new skin-coat lay-ups...no idea how they perform. Also hard to tell if they are using basalt/innegra for durability or for aesthetics or both (I have a Wenonah where it's just for aesthetics and the Swift rep told me that the Wildfire they had at Rutabaga last year also used it for aesthetics). Hemlocks also have a nice gelcoat, similar to Swift.

The new Swift lay-ups sure are pretty but for a high durability lay-up I'd personally go with something more proven in spite of Bill's videos where he smacks a boat gently with a hammer.

My question is when do you call it a re-design rather than just a new one? There seem to be a lot of changes to be considered the same boat just re-designed. Maybe they just wanted to use the name..........

BWCA66 said:

My question is when do you call it a re-design rather than just a new one? There seem to be a lot of changes to be considered the same boat just re-designed. Maybe they just wanted to use the name..........

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I agree. But look at the new Ford Mustang or Maverick. Honda Odyssey started out as an off-road go-cart. I guess when you own a name, you can use it for anything.

I have never paddled the original Dragonfly, but I spent a day paddling the plug for the Dragonfly 15 and I own a Phoenix in IXP. I found the stern of the DF15 to break free in a similar fashion to the Phoenix. Not what I would call sticky. The DF15 feels much more lively and responsive than the Phoenix. The bottom is certainly rounded and there isn't a pronounced tendency to stay flat, but it's wider than the original DF and feels confidence inspiring throughout the arc of its roll, if that make sense.

I owned a Swift in the Kevlar Fusion layup and found it to be quite durable. I ordered the new DF15 in Expedition Kevlar. My intended use is wilderness trips in the far north. I will find out how durable it is. I am at the stage of my life where it makes more sense to use it than to save it.

RPATCH said:

The DF15 feels much more lively and responsive than the Phoenix.

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There it is. That's what I wanted to know. I can tolerate or even ignore the difference in a used canoe, but if I ever scratch together the funds to buy new, I'm going to have to look seriously at that Dragonfly 15.

gumpus said:

A friend's Blacklite boat developed a soft spot after ramming partially submerged logs many times and also required coating with epoxy to cover deep scratches....same usage that my black/gold Bell has had for 25 years with zero maintenance. Older Bells have thick gelcoat (I think you can still order it on a Northstar...it may add 5 pounds) so can take lots of abrasion. In my experience (including being lifted by a piece of rebar) Swift's have a nice, medium-thick gelcoat so are almost as good for abrasion resistance but one could damage a Swift on a hard rock impact more easily than a Bell.

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That is some golden info right there, thanks. Reinforces my inclination to keep my blacklite off rocky creeks. Also reinforces what others have said about my white gold Bell, but I might still stick to Royalex for bony creeks. Guess I should have ordered my blacklite with a gelcoat....the IXP seemed more than I needed (I'm not running real whitewater) but 5 lbs would have been worth it maybe. At this point I'll likely wait til I have a problem before reinforcing....

I split the gelcoat of my srt when I get swung sideways and pushed into shallow rocks while in wabakimi. I really enjoyed the srt but I sure wouldn’t want to punish it in shallow rapids, but that’s the reality of a lot of river trips.

I think I’d feel a lot better with an ixp hull. Can’t beat royalex for certain things.

BWCA66 said:

My question is when do you call it a re-design rather than just a new one?

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Steve in Idaho said:

I guess when you own a name, you can use it for anything.

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I strongly doubt anyone owns the name "Dragonfly." In the U.S. that would require a trademark, and I strongly doubt that Dave Curtis, Dave Yost or anyone else has ever applied for a trademark on a canoe name. I assume there was market interest, most strongly put on Bill Swift by Jeremy Vore, to widen the original Dragonfly for increased stability and to make it a bit more trackable with reduced stern rocker. Since Bill chose DY, who did the formal plans for the Curtis Dragonfly based on specs from Harold Deal, to do the redesign, it was natural for Bill and DY to retain the Dragonfly name and add the numeral 15.

The most egregious example of multiple name use for wildly different canoes is "Prospector." I made a long research post on the former Solotripping.com site, now gone and lost, wherein I identified about 28 then-current canoes sporting the Prospector name. These canoes were very varied in their lengths and all other specifications. Even the original wood/canvas Chestnut Prospectors came in a wide array of lengths and widths. "Prospector Canoe" to Chestnut was just a generic name for a family of working canoes, just as "Pleasure Canoe" was a generic family name for Chestnut's recreational canoes.

RPATCH said:

I found the stern of the DF15 to break free in a similar fashion to the Phoenix. Not what I would call sticky.

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In THIS POST in another thread, I compared the specifications of the DF15 to the Hemlock SRT. I speculated that the DF15 would be a bit slower but a bit turnier than the SRT, and RPATCH's experience may bear that out. I think there's no doubt that the increased width of the DF15 gives it more initial stabiity than the SRT.

At this point, it looks like we may have the new Swift Dragonfly 15, Hemlock SRT and Redfeather Rockstar all on a Big Salmon River trip in Yukon Territory next summer.

RPATCH said:

At this point, it looks like we may have the new Swift Dragonfly 15, Hemlock SRT and Redfeather Rockstar all on a Big Salmon River trip in Yukon Territory next summer.

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I would LOVE to hear/see/read not just a trip report (which would be awesome) but an in-depth comparison of those three hulls

RPATCH said:

I spent a day paddling the plug for the Dragonfly 15

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Robert, I didn't recognize your name at first because you haven't posted here much. Upon watching Swift's Dragonfly 15 video, I see Bill Swift twice credits your test paddling for helping make the decision to put the DF15 into production earlier than planned. Good job! I, too, will be interested in hearing about the boat's performance on a wilderness trip.

RPATCH said:

At this point, it looks like we may have the new Swift Dragonfly 15, Hemlock SRT and Redfeather Rockstar all on a Big Salmon River trip in Yukon Territory next summer.

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I've done the Big Salmon a couple of times, though it's been many years. I think our last run on it was 1997. We were all paddling tandem though. Have fun.

Nick Pending said:

I've done the Big Salmon a couple of times, though it's been many years. I think our last run on it was 1997. We were all paddling tandem though. Have fun.

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Thank you! We did 700 miles on the Yukon last summer and as we were passing the mouth of the Big Salmon, NikonF5user (Russ) commented that he always wanted to do the Big Salmon. So here we go!

RPATCH said:

Thank you! We did 700 miles on the Yukon last summer and as we were passing the mouth of the Big Salmon, NikonF5user (Russ) commented that he always wanted to do the Big Salmon. So here we go!

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It's a pretty and relatively benign run. A couple easy rapids, one was a bit rocky at low water on our first trip. The river channel changes once in a while in flatter sections because of flooding, but the gradient isn't such that there's much problem. Could be log jams as a result. I recommend getting shuttled to the river outlet of Quiet Lake unless you want to test boats on a long flatwater lake with wind potential. It's only about 20 miles if I remember right, no Lake Laberge, but still a fair distance, especially if windy. Could add a day to the trip. I'm not a fisherman but the fishing was decent according to the fisherfolk in our two different groups. That was over 25 years ago now.

RPATCH said:

At this point, it looks like we may have the new Swift Dragonfly 15, Hemlock SRT and Redfeather Rockstar all on a Big Salmon River trip in Yukon Territory next summer.

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Robert, I assume you will be in your new DF15. Can you say who will be in the SRT and Rockstar? Some folks here may know them.

Glenn MacGrady said:

Robert, I assume you will be in your new DF15. Can you say who will be in the SRT and Rockstar? Some folks here may know them.

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Yes, my plan is to take the DF15. We have a tentative group at this point, which is not completely set. Part of the canoe equation will be renting vs. bringing for those flying vs driving. Let me get the okay to spill the beans before I do. I am pretty focused on a 10 day Everglades trip that six of us will be doing in six different solo canoes on January 1st. Then I'll be turning my attention to the Big Salmon trip.