I need to refinish an ash paddle made by Dale Toby of Grand Lake Stream. I’m looking for opinions on what is the most appropriate — not necessarily the cheapest — varnish to use. Thoughts?
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Best varnish for ash paddle
- Thread starter Art D
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I’m partial to Interlux Schooner #96 I’ve used it for decades. The only down side is you need to buy Interlux special thinner to clean the brush if you don’t use a disposable one.
Jim
Jim
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If you're sanding off all the old varnish, I'd consider not varnishing at all and using Watco teak oil instead. It soaks into the wood to preserve it and (IMO) leaves a better feel.
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I'd second the idea to use an oil of some sort, at least for the shaft and grip. I've found that the varnish type finishes are more prone to raising blisters, etc. If you end up not liking it, you can always put an oil-based varnish on top of the (cured) oil.
It seems that I’ve heard several times from manufacturers and others than ash paddles don’t take oil well. Perhaps I’ll varnish the blade and oil the shaft and handle for now, knowing I can always varnish over the oil down the road.
I've had good luck wet sanding varnished shafts with something like 1000 grit sandpaper. This makes for a "soft" feeling shaft that has good grip when wet but doesn't grab or cause blisters.
Alan
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Now that you mention it, I think I've heard that as well. I'm not sure why varnish (especially an oil-based varnish) would penetrate any better than the oil but I'd be interested in your experience.
When I did my paddles, I could see that the first coat was soaking in (some places more than others) but subsequent coats took less oil to stay wet.
I tried several varnishes on my last paddle batch and I keep going back to Epiphanes . I have heard good things about Interlux, but never made the chance to use it.
Any reasonable marine varnish is going to work fine, but the better ones will work and finish nicer IMO.
Any reasonable marine varnish is going to work fine, but the better ones will work and finish nicer IMO.
But varnishes generally don't penetrate, unless you're playing with some oil/varnish/thinner blend that carries the varnish deeper into the wood. ("Boat Soup" as some of the longer-distance sail cruisers call it - it's rather similar to the finishes marketed as "Danish Oil", but with an exterior/spar varnish instead of the interior versions)
Side note: I've got a couple of ash-shaft paddles (my first paddles, made up from scrap along with my first canoe build) and I never ended up putting a finish on the shafts at all.
A longtime favorite "oil" for exterior wood and marine uses, such as canoe gunwales and paddles, is Watco Teak Oil. (Watco Danish Oil is for interior wood, such as indoor furniture.) All Watcos are a blend of varnish, linseed oil, dryers and thinners. A pure oil like tung or hempseed (Badger) presumably has no varnish in it.
I have always been skeptical about the "penetrating" claims of oils. I think all oils and varnishes are mainly surface coats.
For purely show or decorative paddles a lustrous finish may be nice, but all of my paddles are used and are expected to get scratched, dinged and otherwise worn. Hence, I don't care much about an A+ perfect finish. I use Watco Teak or, more recently, an inexpensive wipe-on varnish on gunwales; and the wipe-on varnish on paddle blades. I use Watco Teak or wipe-on varnish on paddle shafts. I either put Watco Teak on grips or often nothing. The grip will get naturally oiled from your hand over time if you use it.
Any oil that is slathered heavily on will be sticky and take a long time to dry. Go light, wipe off excess after a time, rub in, and apply many coats that way. The benefit of wipe-on varnish is that it dries quickly and you can apply two or three coats fairly rapidly.
Interesting discussion on finishes, for the purposes of this group, I think the field needs to be narrowed down some to exterior spar varnishes (if epoxy is involved then UV additives should be included) and exterior oils. The reason I suggest just spar varnishes, is most of our application will require flexibility and a lot of other varnishes just don't have any.
It's amazing that products that work in almost exactly the same way offer so many different types of performances. A solvent to keep all the constituent oils in solution ( a caveat here is that an oil can be both a solvent and component of the finish), upon application, the solvent evaporates and the oils start to oxidize and polymerize to form the finish. In the case of varnish, the solids content is higher, but the process is the same. Wipe on varnish is just thinner, containing something like 50% solvents, so wiping that on, gives a much thinner coat (so add 50% solvent to regular spar varnish and make your own "wipe on" product).
Much as I would love "The one ring to rule them all", iMO there is no such animal available. Leaving non wood paddles out of the equation for this discussion.
If I had a solid paddle, I would be inclined to use a rubbed in oil finish for the following reasons (IMO)
- better protection*
- better hand feel
- easier application
- easier touch up or refinish
* neither finish is very robust to abrasion/bump damage, but with varnish, there is a film and if you get a penetrating scratch, water can get trapped in the wood and hasten rot. With oil, there is no film, the water can evaporate off.
If I had a solid composite paddle with waterproof glue, I would tend to the same as a solid paddle for the same reasons.
For a composite/solid paddle involving epoxy, all areas with epoxy use 3 coats of varnish with UV protection (or whatever manufacturer suggests), any other areas with rubbed oil.
- the epoxy needs the UV protection
- finish is more work
- still pretty easy to touch up
- not robust for damage
So IMO finish selection is tied to what you are finishing, the type of paddle construction will dictate what is available for suitable protection, you can select your preference from that list. The purist who chops down a cherry tree, dries the wood, hews the planks and carves a beautiful paddle, can finish it with pretty much what he wants and it will work fine. Likewise, the guys with a lots of hardwood scraps decides to make a cool composite of contrasting woods, all done up with waterproof glue, can also use either finish style. Once you start pushing performance boundaries (strength vs weight) with epoxy and cloth the list narrows because you have to protect the epoxy.
I agree with the sentiment about equipment is made to be used, although what the appropriate definition of the term "used" seems to vary from user to user, I think an area that gets little discussion is how they get stored, the paddles likely spend the majority of their life being stored as opposed to being actively used. Proper storage is likely one of the most important (and easiest) ways to maximize a paddles lifespan.
Just a few thoughts
Brian
It's amazing that products that work in almost exactly the same way offer so many different types of performances. A solvent to keep all the constituent oils in solution ( a caveat here is that an oil can be both a solvent and component of the finish), upon application, the solvent evaporates and the oils start to oxidize and polymerize to form the finish. In the case of varnish, the solids content is higher, but the process is the same. Wipe on varnish is just thinner, containing something like 50% solvents, so wiping that on, gives a much thinner coat (so add 50% solvent to regular spar varnish and make your own "wipe on" product).
Much as I would love "The one ring to rule them all", iMO there is no such animal available. Leaving non wood paddles out of the equation for this discussion.
If I had a solid paddle, I would be inclined to use a rubbed in oil finish for the following reasons (IMO)
- better protection*
- better hand feel
- easier application
- easier touch up or refinish
* neither finish is very robust to abrasion/bump damage, but with varnish, there is a film and if you get a penetrating scratch, water can get trapped in the wood and hasten rot. With oil, there is no film, the water can evaporate off.
If I had a solid composite paddle with waterproof glue, I would tend to the same as a solid paddle for the same reasons.
For a composite/solid paddle involving epoxy, all areas with epoxy use 3 coats of varnish with UV protection (or whatever manufacturer suggests), any other areas with rubbed oil.
- the epoxy needs the UV protection
- finish is more work
- still pretty easy to touch up
- not robust for damage
So IMO finish selection is tied to what you are finishing, the type of paddle construction will dictate what is available for suitable protection, you can select your preference from that list. The purist who chops down a cherry tree, dries the wood, hews the planks and carves a beautiful paddle, can finish it with pretty much what he wants and it will work fine. Likewise, the guys with a lots of hardwood scraps decides to make a cool composite of contrasting woods, all done up with waterproof glue, can also use either finish style. Once you start pushing performance boundaries (strength vs weight) with epoxy and cloth the list narrows because you have to protect the epoxy.
I agree with the sentiment about equipment is made to be used, although what the appropriate definition of the term "used" seems to vary from user to user, I think an area that gets little discussion is how they get stored, the paddles likely spend the majority of their life being stored as opposed to being actively used. Proper storage is likely one of the most important (and easiest) ways to maximize a paddles lifespan.
Just a few thoughts
Brian
Would be interesting to weight that paddle before and after an outing, wonder how much weight it would gain after a few hours of submersion?
I haven't weighed them. I'd imagine not that much. The blades of these paddles are sealed - Cedar and glass, actually. Only a limited amount of Ash in the water. Ash is only about 50% moisture content when green. While you can super-saturate wood, a paddling session won't do it.
That may be so. However, I have no need for varnish or thinner for any other purpose, so buying a small twist-top can of wipe-on varnish is very convenient and inexpensive. It also requires no brushes to clean or throw away. I used to brush spar varnish on some of my wood-gunwaled canoes, but I didn't like the time, expense, mess and drip potential that my novice varnishing skills entailed. Wipe on with a rag is easy, fast and cheap for me.
This time and money saving may sound trivial to some folks, but it isn't when you have more than 10 canoes with wood gunwales and more than 20 wood paddles. I find that wipe-on varnish not only takes less time to apply and dry but also lasts longer than wipe-on oils, and that I don't have to re-apply nearly so often.
I'm not aware that any of my wood gunwales or paddles are externally epoxied. If they are, the varnish will be a better protectant than an oil.
That depends on the type and grain of wood. Here is what master paddle maker Bruce Smith emailed me about what kind of finish he applies to his solid wood paddles:
"Finishes vary on the species and the grain. Open grains like black walnut and ash [and the butternut paddle I bought from Bruce] require spar varnish, finished up with some hand rubbed spar and boiled linseed mixed together to make the hands slide better in the water and take the shine down a bit.
"Cherry is finished with about 12 hand rubbed coats of boiled linseed oil.
"For lighter coloured woods like maple and soft maple, I start with tung oil thinned down for penetration. Tung prevents a lot of the yellowing that these woods experience. I finish these up with my own Danish oil (spar and tung combined).
"All laminated paddles with walnut have to have some spar on the walnut lamination to seal it properly, then followed up with homemade Danish.
"Nobody that I'm aware of takes the time to do what I do."
That "Nobody" certainly includes me. I'm not going to hand rub 12 coats of anything on a prosaic tool like a paddle. However, I know that there are wood lovers, carpentry experts and wood finish hobbyists, among canoeists and elsewhere, who like to do such things.
Glen, I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with rub on varnish, just if you have the thinner and the varnish, you mix it up on the fly a lot cheaper than buying a separate product. I had read an article (or 2) on wipe on varnish and was just sharing that info. If anything we are on the same page, the cost of these products can add up fast and just making your rubbing varnish is IMO cheaper and making just what you need is convenient.
All these products have a place in the wood protection business, so much is dependent on the user, the environment, how they get used and stored ..... I consider myself a bit fussy, but I can't see me ever doing 12 hand rubbed oil coats on anything, I am tripping with.
All these products have a place in the wood protection business, so much is dependent on the user, the environment, how they get used and stored ..... I consider myself a bit fussy, but I can't see me ever doing 12 hand rubbed oil coats on anything, I am tripping with.
Sand off the varnish and finish it with watco oil. I've carved nearly a hundred paddles and varnish is a second best finish for a paddle.
Why? Varnished paddles need to be refinished. The varnish, when nicked, traps moisture and grows mildew. With an oiled paddle, you buff the scratch with some light sanding and rub oil on it...done.
AND, you don't need to do 12 hand rubbed oil coats. I do 2 or 3 on a brand new paddle, and after that, just a quick wipe every so often. It's so easy.
Why? Varnished paddles need to be refinished. The varnish, when nicked, traps moisture and grows mildew. With an oiled paddle, you buff the scratch with some light sanding and rub oil on it...done.
AND, you don't need to do 12 hand rubbed oil coats. I do 2 or 3 on a brand new paddle, and after that, just a quick wipe every so often. It's so easy.
As much as I wished there was one finish to rule them all, there isn't. You don't need to refinish a varnished paddle if it gets damaged, just like an oiled paddle, it gets some maintenance, albeit, it is a bit more work. Routine maintenance is probably one of the most important items for gear longevity ... probably more important than the type of finish IMO.
As stated ... oil has it place with certain paddles and it works very well, for example, for the carved paddles you are making. If on the other hand you decide to oil up your new composite wood, epoxy/glass coated blade, with an oil finish, well, it just isn't suited to that task. There are a lot of flavours of DIY wood paddles being made and finish selection needs to made with product protection requirements in mind.
Boiled linseed oil and tung oil grow mildew even when not nicked, frequently seen as a black coating or stain on wood gunwale canoes that are treated only with these oils. Not sure about hempseed oil, which is sold by Badger Paddles, but I don't see why it wouldn't attract mold since it's a food.
Watco contains linseed oil, but the Watco Teak marine formulation (at least) contains a mildewcide along with UV inhibiting varnish ingredients.
Bruce Smith spends a lot of time finishing paddles because he sells them commercially for $200-$300 USD, and has been hand-making solid wood paddles for over 55 years. I tend to think he knows what he's talking about when he recommends spar varnish for ash paddles, which is the topic of this thread.
I just do quick touch-ups on my many paddles as needed. A quick wipe of Watco or of wipe-on poly varnish takes me exactly the same time, and both look the same to me. Maybe the varnish is a little shinier. I have originally varnished Mitchell paddles that are over 40 years old that I've never touched up.
Glenn, that opens a whole new selection criteria for finish IMO, I don't usually use ash (or oaks) because of the weight, but their grain structure is so open that it would likely be best to get that sealed up. Ash is very strong, but I believe also prone to rot if left exposed.
thats why i use watco
