Does canoeing northern areas reduce the luster of the southern areas?

Pretty strange and completely unexpected. While getting ready for Wabakimi I read some threads on the BWCA site with WCPP and Wabakimi threads. Several posters maintained that going to Wabakimi ruined the BWCA for them. I made note of these posts and thought about them while on the trip. I believe for me, there might be some elements of truth here.

I have been thinking of Wabakimi pretty much every day since I got back. As it turned time to start planning my fall ADK trips I found myself unusually disinterested. I just kept thinking about Wabakimi and I have now bounced the idea of heading up there for a month next summer off of Chick, who said go for it. Not sure how long this feeling will last, but at this point the ADK's are not even registering. I just want to go back north!

Don't think I'm alone.

Yeah, I can't think of anywhere in the US I'd really want to go canoe tripping except maybe the lower canyons of the Rio Grande some winter.

Even though you know you're not the first person to use the portages or camp sites it has more of that feel in more remote areas. I can almost always find signs that someone has camped where I'm camping but oftentimes it's an old fire ring with a 70 year old tree growing in it or some old trappers cabin that's completely crumbled and is nothing more than a square moss covered hump on the ground. There is more fuel for the imagination.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

Yeah, I can't think of anywhere in the US I'd really want to go canoe tripping except maybe the lower canyons of the Rio Grande some winter.

Even though you know you're not the first person to use the portages or camp sites it has more of that feel in more remote areas. I can almost always find signs that someone has camped where I'm camping but oftentimes it's an old fire ring with a 70 year old tree growing in it or some old trappers cabin that's completely crumbled and is nothing more than a square moss covered hump on the ground. There is more fuel for the imagination.

Alan

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My wife and I did the Lower Canyons of the Rio Grande in late Feb-early March on 2019, though in my opinion it doesn't pass your test of few signs of camping along it. There was an awful lot of garbage along the river on our run, most with Spanish writing on it, admittedly, especially in the vicinity of some warm springs, but we seemed to see it pretty much full length of the 80+ mile run. We did see one other group on our run, as well as a couple fishermen.

For me Just going through I think it was three lakes in Minnesota to get to Quetico Park ruined the BWCA for me. Then moving west ruined the approximately 10 years of Quetico visits. I've never been to Wabakimi or Woodland Caribou Parks, or any others in Ontario for that matter. There are other USA "wilderness" runs I'd still do, like the Missouri Breaks in Montana, and the Green in Utah (flatwater stretches on it is all I've done). With raft support I'd do the Grand Canyon again, but I'm no longer capable of anything like that. I got four runs in the big ditch on private permits over the years, so that may be more than my share anyway.

I don't consider them real spectacular but Yellowstone Lake has an appeal, as does Shoshone Lake in Yellowstone Park. The latter is more the geyser basin there than anything else. You are probably just talking numbers of people in regards to your post, visitors loving it to death as the saying goes, but there's more and more of them everywhere every year, some places just have fewer. And it's gonna get worse everywhere, some places maybe more slowly than others. Not much we can do about it other than shutting down sites like this. No, I don't want to do that either.

No doubt about it for me. The solitude, quietness, no anxiety about finding an open campsite, wildlife not seen further south and things that are hard to put into words. Bush whacking across WCPP years ago I walked up on a ten star campsite. Five inches of lichen covered the open rock segments. Buried in the lichen I found an old fire ring and inside was a bush crafted billy can for making the tea. I estimated it sat there 50 plus years and no one had come by. No I can't see myself anywhere else.

North and south depends on one’s perspective and experience. Kathleen and I have done quite a few northern Canada wilderness canoe trips. We generally consider anything south of 60 degrees north to be southern, and not something we would pursue. (One exception was the Seal River in northern Manitoba at 58 degrees north. But at least it was above tree line as we approached Hudson Bay). We don’t consider ourselves to be truly north unless we are above the Arctic Circle (66 degrees 34 minutes). I note that Wabakimi is a little over 50 degrees north; way too south for us. I also note that Wabakimi Lake has approximately 500 established campsites, which is about 500 more than we prefer. On most of our trips, established campsites are rare. We often have no idea where our next camp will be. That’s how we like it. On some of our trips we see no other people, or just one or two other paddling groups.

But that’s just us, and our preferences. There is no right and wrong. It’s whatever one seeks based on experience, available time and funds. I looked at pictures of Wabakimi: very beautiful. Just not something that we would consider. That’s irrelevant, though. If Wabakimi calls out to you keeledover, go for it! dang the torpedos. Full steam ahead. Michael and Kathleen are overly pretentious, and are best ignored.

I was almost 60 when I made my first Wabakimi trip in 2007 after maybe 15 trips over 30+ years in the BW. I remember a July 1999 BW trip where we had to start looking for campsites shortly after lunch. On our last day of that trip we came into Seagull Lake later in the afternoon after having passed occupied campsites all afternoon and had to race another group for what appeared to be the last unoccupied campsite. That is when I became disenchanted with the area. I started to think about Canada but didn’t make my first trip for number of years.

What I love about Canada is the sense of solitude and few if any other people. Some consider Wabakimi to be pristine but it has had human use for probably thousands of years but much of it not for decades. My experience has been that the area does not have a lot of campsites. I have taken 24 weeks of trips in the Wabakimi area. I have always wanted to travel farther north but I am glad to have made it to Canada and hope to continue to do so for a few more years before I age out of canoe tripping.

With a few friends I still take shorter trips in northern Wisconsin and Upper Michigan but nothing compares to tripping in Canada.

I really enjoyed my BW trip and would not hesitate to go again if the kids or someone else wanted to see it but I'd be sure to go before Memorial Day or after Labor Day.

I did really enjoy the solitude of the Steel River and I'm looking forward to not seeing humans next week when I return to Mem country (I have penciled in Wabakimi for 2025) but I wouldn't say it's "ruined" me for other places (at least not so far).

I'd still like to do the Allegheny river here in PA (ideally from Port Allegheny to Parker), the West Branch of the Susquehanna (all of it) and a few others locally while Sparkleberry swamp / Congaree, Lake Okeechobee / Suwannee river and, perhaps even, the Everglades hold a lot of interest. Many western rivers and the inside passage are also on the bucket list although in the "unlikely to ever do it" category.

I've even toyed with the idea of starting in Baltimore & paddling to New Orleans (freshwater route, not ocean) but I'll need to win at least one powerball jackpot in order to do that.

I do think it's normal, once experienced, to yearn for the solitude of the Canadian bush. I'll spend 2 weeks or so North of the border starting Sunday and I fully expect to be irritated that people are, seemingly, everywhere upon my return.

PaddlingPitt said:

North and south depends on one’s perspective and experience. Kathleen and I have done quite a few northern Canada wilderness canoe trips. We generally consider anything south of 60 degrees north to be southern, and not something we would pursue. (One exception was the Seal River in northern Manitoba at 58 degrees north. But at least it was above tree line as we approached Hudson Bay). We don’t consider ourselves to be truly north unless we are above the Arctic Circle (66 degrees 34 minutes). I note that Wabakimi is a little over 50 degrees north; way too south for us. I also note that Wabakimi Lake has approximately 500 established campsites, which is about 500 more than we prefer. On most of our trips, established campsites are rare. We often have no idea where our next camp will be. That’s how we like it. On some of our trips we see no other people, or just one or two other paddling groups.

But that’s just us, and our preferences. There is no right and wrong. It’s whatever one seeks based on experience, available time and funds. I looked at pictures of Wabakimi: very beautiful. Just not something that we would consider. That’s irrelevant, though. If Wabakimi calls out to you keeledover, go for it! dang the torpedos. Full steam ahead. Michael and Kathleen are overly pretentious, and are best ignored.

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Hi Michael, Wabakimi did call out, but not in a sense there were no other places to explore - still many of them - but this was my first trip to 50 so furthest north for me so far. I just want that feeling of solitude. I leave for the Thelon in a couple of weeks - that might ruin Wabakimi. I would be up for anything to get that remote feeling again. Just can't get that in the ADK's. Depending on how health issues go, I have been intrigued by the Horton lately as well.

My Canadian trips didn’t alter my desire to go to the Adirondacks and Maine, I just made an effort to go off season to them and saved my summer trips to the near north of Canada.
I have been the first into Lows in the Adk, maybe close to the last too, and I’m pretty sure the last to Poland pond in Maine on different trips, the canvas tent/wood stove really helped make these trips possible.
If I lived in the mid west I would definitely take advantage of the easy one day ride north to some of the best boreal forest canoe tripping anywhere.

I would love to do some trips south of the border, Maine, even Florida. There is only so much rocks and trees and bugs that a fella can see before he wants to change things up. I'd love to do a trip in Maine in the fall when the leaves are changing, we only get yellow colours up here.

Proximity is a luster all its own...

And as it turns out, for me, this became true. And with the Thelon in the rear view mirror, Wabakimi is becoming more like the ADK's to me. Wabakimi was wonderful, but the Thelon raised the bar by a bunch of course. I may have a different perspective on this since I don't see myself paddling too far in the future. Horton, Elk - have to wait and see. Tell you what, it was beautiful up there. And yes, plenty of swimming in pretty warm water. Took over 50 years to get there. Crossed off the list.

Northern is certainly relative. When I first read the title of this thread I pictured it being about paddling in the northern states (e.g. BWCA or ADK) compared to southern US creeks and swamps.

memaquay said:

I would love to do some trips south of the border, Maine, even Florida. There is only so much rocks and trees and bugs that a fella can see before he wants to change things up. I'd love to do a trip in Maine in the fall when the leaves are changing, we only get yellow colours up here.

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My door is always open my friend.

While my most favorite trips have always been in Canada, I have always held a special place in my heart for the Adirondacks. Spring and fall in the ADK’s base camped in my small wall tent was always something I looked forward to.
An August trip to Quebec or northwest Ontario was always a something special, but those local trips never lost their appeal.

I have been canoe tripping and bushwhack camping (with or without a canoe) with visits to remote small ponds and other destinations in my home area of the Adirondacks for most of my life. I feel comfortable in the relative flatwaters of the Adirondacks and know my target areas very well.

I began canoe racing in my 40's, and was invited to join a Yukon River race team when in my late 50's. The Yukon changes its character every year in many areas, and as team navigator I immensely enjoy the challenge of plotting and improving the efficiency and speed of my Yukon route each year. Five exciting successful trips later to that great north river, including a couple of 1000 mile races (which briefly cross the arctic circle) have not made me bored or tired of my Adirondack homeland with its freedom of travel and no camping fee or reservations required where I go.

I have often thought about the BW and other southern Canadian paddling, but the crowds with necessary regulations, and reservation system turn me off. The Adirondack portion of the NFCT is well known to me, down to well known individual subsurface rocks, logs and shallows to avoid during my annual 90 mile race as I recount their location to my stern paddler, and apart from racing on the main route, there is no end to experiencing isolation and solitude with differing approaches to the combination trips to my favorite remote backcountry ponds and waterways.

Part of what keeps the interest going is I became a licensed guide and long term (30+ year) canoe and land nav instructor for the BSA National Camping School trek leader high adventure adult guide training program. Also, my interest in precision wildland navigation and as an instructor of guides and SAR team leader with the DEC and statewide search and rescue teams, including swift water rescue training.

I would love to do some trips south of the border, Maine, even Florida.

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Take next Fall off, head up to Robin's for peak leaf color (in late Sept?) and follow the peak South. Bring a boat & we'll do a 4 day Allegheny River float through the National Forest (no portages but you'll see cabins / houses on both sides of the river almost the whole way)

Usually the 2nd & 3rd week of October are best color here but it's been so dry this year that it probably won't be very good "leaf peeping"

Incidentally, when you get here, you're about 1/2 way to Okeechobee & the Suwannee river... I bet you could couch surf the whole way & paddle til Christmas!

I find that northern trips tend to be more serious trips than southern (although to me southern is relative- I live in Canada) and enjoy them equally- on northern trips the idea that you're remote enough that injury, accidents, and even nasty weather can be life altering can weigh on your mind at nights, and your skills and training need to be top notch because there is no immediate help, but it's the sense of adventure, self- reliance, discovery, and not having to deal with others are it's main appeals,
When I'm on southern trips I know that help is never far away and mistakes are less critical, though you can still kill yourself if you screw up bad. I also know that I'm not locked into a specific river or time, and can bail or extend anytime I want (I can always pop into a town to restock). This means I can relax more and even shut off my brain for a bit.
while ignorant people are more prevalent, so are friendlier types, I've been offered everything from a cold beer, to a ride into town, or even a night in a cottager's bunkie on a stormy day.
So, no those "expeditions" haven't turned me off from southern trips, if anything they've helped me appreciate that while different, the two can be equally pleasing...