PFD Zipper vs Buckles

During Boy Scout High adventure guide training, we have students swim in calm water and we throw them a PFD to try to don it in the water. Few are very effectiive at getting it properly on and fastened. Now we tell then to think about trying it in rough conditions fast current, big waves from wind, freezing water, or worse. Now imagine a young scout of questionable ability who is in your wilderness trek trying to do the same thing.

yknpdlr said:

During Boy Scout High adventure guide training, we have students swim in calm water and we throw them a PFD to try to don it in the water. Few are very effectiive at getting it properly on and fastened. Now we tell then to think about trying it in rough conditions fast current, big waves from wind, freezing water, or worse. Now imagine a young scout of questionable ability who is in your wilderness trek trying to do the same thing.

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Yep, I'm a believer. Some years back I went over in an innocuous setting without my PFD (goofing off--calm, shallow, other paddlers almost in arms reach), I was really surprised how difficult it was to put the PFD on (Seda zipper). I learned something after 40 years paddling.....

Went out this evening to test our vests. Freakish storm blasting through but warm water and minor chop. Threw our vests into the water and swam out to don them. I was mostly incapable of getting mine on trying with both tight straps then loose. We even role-played that I was unconcious and my paddle-partner could not get it zipped. She wrapped her legs around me for leverage (bonus!). Still impossible.

This was the weather condition for our test. Could not imagine getting my vest on in cold rollers.

Mason said:

Yep, I'm a believer. Some years back I went over in an innocuous setting without my PFD (goofing off--calm, shallow, other paddlers almost in arms reach), I was really surprised how difficult it was to put the PFD on (Seda zipper). I learned something after 40 years paddling.....

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I had an unplanned swim several years ago on the lake. I was lollygagging near shore and didn't have a jacket on. When the canoe finally sank I was surprised that I went all the way under and then had to bump around and deliberately get my head back above the water.

It was surprising because I just didn't expect a flat water swim would be that serious.

So I also learned I needed to wear my life jacket.

My opinion is whatever life jacket you'll wear is the best one.

Could not imagine getting my vest on in cold rollers.

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I'm guilty of not always wearing a pfd. Mine is always within reach but, often, only worn when I think conditions are adverse enough to warrant it. In the event that I would go swimming without it, I doubt I'd waste the energy to try to put it on. Probably better at that point to use it as a boogie board to assist in staying afloat and getting back to the canoe (which should also float) and/or getting to shore.

2 places where I am far more likely to wear a pfd are in water cold enough to hasten hypothermia (I figure it'll make it easier to recover the body... if I don't disrobe as delirium sets in) and if I'd ever, again, be involved in youth groups such as the Scouts that require pfds.

yknpdlr said:

During Boy Scout High adventure guide training, we have students swim in calm water and we throw them a PFD to try to don it in the water. Few are very effectiive at getting it properly on and fastened. Now we tell then to think about trying it in rough conditions fast current, big waves from wind, freezing water, or worse. Now imagine a young scout of questionable ability who is in your wilderness trek trying to do the same thing.

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part of the swim test I instituted was to jump in the pool fully clothed and attempt to put on your PFD, none of the kids and very few of the adults could do it, but that was the point- to wear your PFD BEFORE getting in trouble...

On the final day of field anual training/testing of BSA high adventure trek leader guide training/certification, after landing our canoes at a campsite and returning from a somewhat strenuous navigation exercise hike to an observation peak and a system of ice caves, I will usually conduct an unannounced role-play scenario with the return of the dreaded and always troublesome young "Bobby scout".

Not the first role play of the week, Bobby has not had a good trekking week and has had just about enough of the days of rules and mean spirited scoutmaster (Mr. Finkelstein) put downs. He decides to grab a canoe and paddle home on his own, without wearing or bringing a PFD, of course. it is up to the designated now "leader of the day" (LOD) in training to "rescue" Bobby, who is flailing with his paddle in his highly uncontrolled canoe, by now at least 30 yards from shore in deep water. Hopefully the LOD brings (3) PFDs with a capable assistant in another canoe as the other students in the crew watch the drama unfold. Of course, panicked Bobby, by now clinging to an overturned canoe, is unable to put on the PFD given to him, much less follow simple directions, and is very close to overturning the rescue canoe as well (He never causes that to actually happen), as the rescue attempt proceeds with the final solution of somehow returning back to shore with victim either in the rescue canoe or in tow.

A post exercise debrief with everyone discusses the good, the bad, the well done, and the "needs to do".
I have had later encounters with former students who claim, after their first seasons as a trek guide, that "Bobby" does in fact exist in the scouting world.

yknpdlr said:

Now imagine a young scout of questionable ability who is in your wilderness trek trying to do the same thing.

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Agreed taking care of the youngsters is socially responsible. Just like buckling them into a car seat.

Gamma1214 said:

Mine is always within reach but, often, only worn when I think conditions are adverse enough to warrant it. In the event that I would go swimming without it, I doubt I'd waste the energy to try to put it on. Probably better at that point to use it as a boogie board to assist in staying afloat and getting back to the canoe (which should also float) and/or getting to shore.

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This too has always been my/our position. Somewhat reckless but I don't carry life insurance either. Opted not to bring the old buckled vests out for last night's test however I am 100% certain we can easily don them in the waters we paddle as have been doing so for decades.

scoutergriz said:

jump in the pool fully clothed and attempt to put on your PFD, none of the kids and very few of the adults could do it, but that was the point- to wear your PFD BEFORE getting in trouble...

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This sparked a memory of my lifeguard training a lifetime ago where we did the same test. If memory serves, we spread the vest out with the back-side towards the sky, submerged ourselves and came back up with arms raised and through the arm holes. I imagine we then flipped over on our backs to buckle. I'll give this a try next time we are out.

At this point I am mostly convinced a buckled vest is the answer for those of us that don't always wear them. For my vest it is a simple mater of geometry that makes it troublesome. The thing is just so darned thick...like trying to zip together a couple of 2x4s.

This business of successfully putting on a life vest/jacket after you have dumped in the water is highly a function of one's age, weight and physical condition. I doubt I could swim any distance at my age and condition without a life jacket, I probably can't swim very far even with a life jacket, and my physical strength and dexterity have been vastly diminished by age.

My favorite vest for warm weather paddling is my Kokatat SeaO2, which is a hybrid vest. It has 8 lbs. of foam buoyancy and can be pumped up to 22 lbs. buoyancy either with a CO2 cartridge are by about ten blows into a breathing tube. I took the cartridge out of mine. The vest is so light that I barely notice it even in hot, humid weather such as Florida's. If I am going to make a crossing or if wind waves increase, I'll blow it up to full capacity buoyancy as a preventive measure; and then deflate it again as conditions change.

I have tested it in warm waters by deliberately falling out of the canoe and successfully blowing it up to highest buoyancy via the breathing tube. The 8 lbs. of foam is enough to buoy me up while doing so. That's as much risk as I'll take with not wearing a PFD.

Glenn MacGrady said:

This business of successfully putting on a life vest/jacket after you have dumped in the water is highly a function of one's age, weight and physical condition

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Agreed. And possibly one's comfort level with being in calm, warm water.

Glenn MacGrady said:

This business of successfully putting on a life vest/jacket after you have dumped in the water is highly a function of one's age, weight and physical condition. I doubt I could swim any distance at my age and condition without a life jacket, I probably can't swim very far even with a life jacket, and my physical strength and dexterity have been vastly diminished by age.

My favorite vest for warm weather paddling is my Kokatat SeaO2, which is a hybrid vest. It has 8 lbs. of foam buoyancy and can be pumped up to 22 lbs. buoyancy either with a CO2 cartridge are by about ten blows into a breathing tube. I took the cartridge out of mine. The vest is so light that I barely notice it even in hot, humid weather such as Florida's. If I am going to make a crossing or if wind waves increase, I'll blow it up to full capacity buoyancy as a preventive measure; and then deflate it again as conditions change.

I have tested it in warm waters by deliberately falling out of the canoe and successfully blowing it up to highest buoyancy via the breathing tube. The 8 lbs. of foam is enough to buoy me up while doing so. That's as much risk as I'll take with not wearing a PFD.

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I found it was more a function of experience and co-ordination, I had no problem with the drill simply because I had done it over 100 times and had the required practice and muscle memory where the youth and most of the leaders weren't in this position, those youth and adults were all considerably younger than I as the last time I taught this drill I was in my late 50's and recovering from heart surgery and a broken back, and was arguably the least healthy of the bunch...
that was the year I retired from instructing...

Finally made a decision to order a NRS Ninja as during a little swim the other day struggled to get my existing vest off due to limited shoulder mobility from injury/operation. This kinda sealed the deal for me thinking a side-entry like this would be easier/quicker. Looks like they have at least 3 versions of the Ninja with the oldest model being the cheapest.