Carbon Innegra canoe build

[Mrindy]

I finally pulled the trigger on buying the supplies needed for my future build composite canoe, so I guess I HAVE to turn them into something I can paddle This might be last one I get to build due to space constriction (and my wifes patience) so I am going for the gusto! The goal is to make the strongest, lightest tripping canoe as cost effectively as possible. I never would have had the inspiration or guts to try this without all the awesome folks on this forum! I might be in way over my head but here is to adventure!

The layup from inside to out
- 5.7 oz Carbon-innegra twill weave
- 6 oz Intermediate Modulus Carbon Fiber satin weave
- 3.16 oz Style 120 E Glass
- 4 oz S glass football

I am also going to try for those cool composite gunwales I have seen Alan, Stripperguy, and others do. However, I am going for cost effective so I hope that pink polystrene is strong enough with 15 oz CF tape. I will be doing ribs with 5.7 IM CF and the same foam. I know the expert conventional wisdom is a foam core, but that adds weight, cost, and most importantly plenty of ways I could muck it up.

I made up a mock panel that I will post later but here are the things I wanted to test

- Stiffness compared to Moran style Kevlar layup
- Flex compared to Kevlar
- What happens when it breaks in half?
- Cutting Carbon Innegra fabric
- Wet out of Carbon Innegra
- Secondary bonding on Carbon Innegra fabric
- Foam rib strength
- Laying up carbon on ribs
- Laying up Style 120 E Glass
- Using peel ply. My first time using it.

Here is a picture of the materials. The Innegra is actually black so this will be a dark as night canoe.

Any feedback, suggestions, or questions are welcome!

 

[Canotrouge]

good luck with the built and I will be following attentively!!

 

[latremorej]

I'm following!

 

[Jim Dodd]

AWESOME !!! Another Composite Build !!

Hard to learn to Fly, standing on the Ground !!!

Great idea, to do a mock up panel ! The good think about this method, is you can add more stiffening if needed, once you pull the hull off, or out of the mold !

A Few questions, and comments .

Are you using a male, or female mold ?
What design !

I used Pink Owen's Corning for a foam core, on my first Kevlar. It delaminated in short order ! (Another thing I have to do.) Maybe check with Alan or Stripperguy for more info, on the foam they used ?

Carbon Innegra. Interested how you will handle this ?

Looking forward to seeing your results of your panel !

Again AWESOME !!!

Jim

 

[deerfly]

I really like the carbon innegra a lot, almost went with it on my northwind. Its strong and light and I found it easy to wet out with low viscosity epoxy too. Definitely make some test panels with your intended lamination schedule and any variations you're contemplating too.

For me with a strip build the carbon/innegra weighed in at 11.5 oz on 1'x1' cedar test panel. One side carbon/innegra with out fill coat and one side with carbon/innegra and 4oz S-glass fill coated once to simulate interior/exterior finish. This turned out to be a very strong lamination and probably overkill for most strip applications. Your lamination cocktail should be plenty strong too with the overall stiffness depending on how you lay the foam core.

Will be following along here...

 

[stripperguy]

Strong, light and cost effective don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive...
I used H80 Divinycell, I would highly recommend spending the money for it, you'll have a much better boat in the end.
Also, you may want to reconsider that 15 oz carbon for the gunnels. I used some bias woven 13.some carbon tape. It soaked up a ton (OK, not a ton) of resin, and was quite expensive. I was shocked at how much weight that carbon and the needed resin added to my hull. When I do another composite build (notice I didn't say if) I will use the H80 foam for gunnel core, then wrap with bias woven GLASS tape, maybe 9 oz. Use caution when comparing weights of carbon and fiberglass cloths...it's not just the weight you must consider, but the thickness. The additional thickness of the carbon will add more strength than you need, and also add much more weight than you'll want.
As far as the cool look of the carbon gunnels, I can't argue there, but some black paint will make fiberglass look just the same as the expensive, ultimately heavier carbon.

The Diviycell would also be the best choice fr stiffening your hull, whether selectively with a sort of rib, or a full football shape. I don't know if you have the ability to model the various sections, you'll likely come to the same conclusions that I did, the material strengths and geometric shapes will only do so much.
I

 

[Mrindy]

Thanks everyone for the interest and suggestions. The hull will be the same one I posted before - 18 foot cruiser type that has gone brittle. Going with a window shrink wrap for a release.

Here are some of the findings:

- Innegra cuts like Kevlar and might actually be messier than it. Thankfully the Carbon holds it together. I will probably need some Kevlar shears for clean cuts.
- Wet out of CI seemed fine. Maybe it soaked up a little more resin, but not very noticeably.
- Style 120 E Glass is tightly woven and behaved a lot like Jims S-Glass. Gonna need to squeegee hard.
- Secondary bonding was no issue on the CI. That should save some lbs of not needed FG on the inside.
- Laying up the 14.6 oz CF gunwales was trickier than I thought. Peel ply is a must to keep it in place.
- Innegra runs the width, Carbon the length which makes for a more flexible panel one way and extremely stiff the other. (When you see the picture with the gunwale, it will actually be running opposite in the final build)
- I bent it both ways and it behaves like a stiffer version of Kevlar going the width (long direction in photo). When bending it to the breaking point going the other stiff way it will eventually crack but holds together. The spot of the hinge is weaker, but you could finish a trip.
- The foam gunwales are really strong. I couldnt break or bend them anyway I tried.

Stripperguy - youre right about that weight. I weighed the difference between the Kevlar + Yellow Pine gunwale sample and the CF foam gunwales on a scale and it looks like I will only save like 1.5 lbs. Maybe 2 if it were ash. What?! It feels a lot lighter, hopefully this old fashioned scale is just bad. In any case, I relieved the local rink of their broken-blade composite hockey sticks. Maybe I can make up the weight with some carbon seats.

 

[Jim Dodd]

At 50" width, CI will be hard to lay on a Bias. Laying on the Bias should help even out the flex of the hull some.

Thinking on the screen, but if you laid a layer of Innegra, and a separate layer of Carbon, could you even out the flex ? I haven't priced materials, so that might make it unreasonable ?

I used Duck brand window heat shrink film. Compared to what I had from Menard's, it was better.

Is there any Tumblehome to speak of, on your Plug !

Again beware of Pink foam! It might work on the gunnels, but not in the hull ! I have the one of the most flexible Kevlar hulls, out there !
I might be tempted to use Cedar, and make it smaller. Covered with CF

I'm getting pretty excited ! And it's Not My canoe !!

Jim

 

[Mrindy]

Jim - sorry if I am not following the terminology but the layup is a layer of CI and a layer of all CF on top of it. It is basically a double layer of carbon in one direction and a single layer of carbon + single layer of Innegra the other direction. Are you thinking of laying a piece at a 45 angle so the strength isnt doubled in the same direction? A double layer of CI would almost have to be laid at opposing angles or it would be real wonky. I see why textreme is such a valuable fabric now.

There is some slight tumblehome but not as extreme as your recent build. Luckily I enlisted a team to help do the layup in one big shot so I dont have to get creative like you!

I was thinking about sealing one stem and leaving the other open on the layup. I have no idea how all you guys are able to get such professional looking ends, mine have DIY written all over them and that was the worst part of the build IMO.

I am most likely going with the pink foam for the gunwales despite the probably wise advice from Stripperguy against it. If nothing else I can report back to future builders on the result. Ribs should be safe with the stiff carbon and will still allow for a -realfoam- foam core if it doesnt work out. I put myself in the rebel rib camp but may change teams if I get burned. Good to know the Duct brand will work and thanks for those pics Deerfly - that white-black contrast looks sweet!

Side note - does Souris River really use the pink foam too? Take a look at their rib picture:
http://www.sourisriver.com/how_we_build.html

 

[sailsman63]

This will be an interesting one to watch.

Mrindy What did you think of the style 120 glass in itself? I've almost got myself convinced to use it as the primary structural glass on my next strip build. (light solo.) The specs make me think that the weave itself might lay thinner, requiring less total resin in the layup for an equivalent amount of glass fiber. (Lighter strong build? Less resin needed to fully encapsulate/fill the weave?)

 

[Mrindy]

sailsman63 that was my thought too, Raka even has something on their website touting its strength compared to the 4 oz boat cloth. I didnt need to add any extra resin when laid up, but it requires more effort to squeegee it through all spots in the weave if that makes sense. It is stiffer than I imagined. I will report back on the drapability, etc. when i get the time (and temperature) to make this beast. At 3 oz, it still might be thin for abrasion which is why I opted for a 4 oz S glass bottom in addition. Here is a picture of it up close if you are interested.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Sorry ! I get so excited some times, my fingers don't type out what's in my head ! Ha !

I see you are using a layer of 5.7 oz Carbon, and Innegra, woven together.
I was wondering if you could use two separate layers, one of each? Thinking the weaves would give you equal strength in all directions ?
Again I haven't priced it out.

Are you getting cloth from Soller composites ?

 

[Alan Gage]

I will probably need some Kevlar shears for clean cuts.

Take a pair of decent scissors and sharpen then on a bench grinder quick at a 90 degree angle. Sounds crazy but it works. When they quit cutting hit them with the grinder again.

Alan

 

[Mrindy]

Oh, so youre saying using a layer of all carbon and a layer of all innegra? I thought about that but was too chicken to go straight for 100% Innegra not knowing the properties. They say Innegra floats on resin which scared me away since I wont be vacuum bagging.

I got the carbon Innegra and 120 Glass from some composite businesses on EBay and the rest from Conposite Envisions. I scope out their featured products and clearance fabric sections. Good deals can be found!

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Carbon-Inneg...722178?hash=item1a411f5542:g:FjMAAOSwYeRaK-lJ

https://m.ebay.com/itm/3-16-oz-4hs-...hash=item1a3cc6f13a:m:m_fw5JU542vTq6aTBhyLfLw

https://compositeenvisions.com/

 

[Jim Dodd]

Now I'll have to order some Innegra to play with !

Thanks for the Links !!! You can't beat the Shipping on the Ebay stuff !

I just made it home from an Overnighter at the kids ! I'll have more time to check out Compositeenvisions later !

Oh ! I have a bunch of scissors to try Alan's trick on ! Most of them have a little resin on them !

Thanks Guys !

Jim

 

[Jim Dodd]

Side note - does Souris River really use the pink foam too? Take a look at their rib picture:
http://www.sourisriver.com/how_we_build.html

I'm betting it's not Owen Corning's Pink Panther stuff !

 

[Mrindy]

Spring has finally arrived in MN and I cant wait for layup day next weekend! I was getting the mold (ie canoe) prepped and thought I might as well make some modifications to make it better for tripping. It has very little freeboard, so I removed the outwales and taped them on top of the inwales flush with the hull. Then I fashioned some pink foam to increase the bow hight an extra 1.75 inches, starting 8 feet from the stem. Lots of duct tape on the inside, packing tape on the outside. Hoping its sturdy enough to handle the shrink wrap and layup...

New dimensions should be about 19.5 in bow; 12.75 in center; 17 in stern, 18 feet long.

With this extra freeboard, should I raise the seat positioning or just leave it as is? I paddled a Wenonah Champlain one time and hated how low the seats were placed, but maybe this minimal increase wont matter.

Thanks,
Mike R

 

[Jim Dodd]

The foam, worries me, if it's not supported on the inside, and you squeegee very hard, you may knock it loose.

Seat height, if you are hanging them from the gunnels, it's easier to raise them later.
If you attach to the hull, it's messier to change down the road.

Maybe try a temporary seat.

Looked at Nova Craft and Bell boats with CI. . Bear was Whaling on a hull with a hammer while I was at the M W Mtn Event. Thinking they used infusion to make the hulls.

Excited now, as I was earlier ! Looking for more to come !

Jim

PS. Coming up to paddle test canoes at Lake Nokomis, May 10. It would be fun to meet up !

 

[Mrindy]

Thanks for the advice! I was kind of hoping the rivets would show through the laminate (just a little) as a guide for seat placement but you can always adjust with hanging seats. I shared your concern with the foam and taped the crap out of them inside, out, and covered. Ive pretty much accepted the fact that it will be a wrinkly, yet functional boat.

Is that midwest mountaineering demo day youre coming up for? If so count me in!

 

[Jim Dodd]

Is that midwest mountaineering demo day youre coming up for? If so count me in!

Yes ! Hoping for good weather !

It will be fun to meet up !

Jim