Starting from Scratch: Sitting/Kneeling or Pack-Boat Style?

[jm0278]

Trying to decide on a first boat for 3 - 10 day solo trips in Algonqin PP, Michigan rivers, and the BWCA and the point was made in a different post that I should first choose between standard canoe seating with kneeling as an option (what I'll call "high" seating) or go with sitting-down-on-the-hull pack-boat style seating ("low" seating). I recognize this is a highly personal choice but my research has led me to make some initial assumptions and I am hoping to get some first-hand feedback on the validity of my assumptions. I will be trying both styles of boat next month, but test paddles will only provide insights for whatever the conditions are on those days.

My assumptions:

• Low seating lowers the center of gravity but at the cost of having less control over the boat, especially versus a kneeling posture.
• High seating with a good quality single blade paddle is less tiring than a kayak paddle over a multi-day trip.
• Low seating with a kayak paddle is significantly better for a solo paddler going into the wind, with the degree of improvement being a function of the strength of the headwind. (I will add that if I get a kayak paddle, it will have an adjustable feather angle so the drag from the airborne blade is minimized.)
• High seating, especially when kneeling, makes the boat much more maneuverable.
• The fore and aft position of a high seat in the canoe effectively precludes being able to sit down in the boat because it would throw the balance of the boat out of whack.
• Low seating pretty much requires a kayak style paddle and high seating effectively requires a single blade paddle: I have seen that it is possible to use a single-blade paddle with a low seat, but that the paddle must be short. The inverse appears to be true for a high seat using a long kayak paddle. However, I don't recall seeing any discussions where someone routinely switches between the type of paddle. This suggests to me that, while possible, it just isn't done, at least not much, so the option of using a high seat with a kayak paddle or a low seat with a canoe paddle is probably not a viable long-term solution.

The challenge for me is to try and determine how I'll feel about the boat two years from now. I strongly suspect I'll feel more stable and efficient with low seating and a kayak style paddle during next month's testing, but I also suspect that after a year or so of serious paddling I may wish I had the flexibility and efficiency of high seating with a single blade paddle.

All input is greatly appreciated -- I'd really like to make the best long-term choice the first time around.

Jim

 

[hidden_lo]

In the end you will probably enjoy using the single blade paddle more and having a boat with a higher seat will give you more options later for comfort and change of position over longer distances. I moved to canoes from sea kayaking because sitting in the floor become too painful on my back after more than an hour paddling. It got to be difficult to get back up out of it. A canoe lets me sit upright and change position often to reduce pain an fatigue. I can get in and out easier, which helps when a quick landing is required

 

[BWCA66]

I can't stand kayak style sitting so it's an easy choice for me. If you get a high seat and want a double bladed paddle just note they make them specifically for canoes.
I also think you will find the reason people don't switch between a double and single isn't that they don't work from either high or low as long as you have the right paddle, it's just personal preference.
The problem with this site is many of us have an addiction to owning canoes so we will tell you to just buy both styles!

 

[yellowcanoe]

Nope to the last. I have a pack canoe with adjustable seats. Low med and high.
It's possible to paddle with a single blade from the low position. I use a 46 inch bent shaft
Sitting low you do restrict your vision. That moose may be totally invisible to you. I have a pack canoe because it's 23 lbs and I paddle lots of bigger water and I need a kayak style boat for that but cannot sit in a kayak due to arthritis.
I'd not overthink this all. I got one solo off the rack cause it fit my tripping needs and was a manufacturers blem and was cheap. Other boats followed over the next 25 years but I still have the first

 

[Guest]

One big advantage of a high seat rarely mentioned is that it is much easier to get in and out of a canoe with a high seat in difficult launches and take outs or climb overs. This is because you can put your feet under you and push up to get out and to lower yourself down. I have been on many paddles with a mixed group of high and low seated boats and the low seaters have a much harder time getting in and out-some even give up and eat lunch in their boats or won't go on paddles that have difficult put ins even though we are always glad to help them. It's like the difference of getting up from a low chair vs getting up off the floor.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I so resemble that remark Turtle. But I roll over and then kneel to get out of a pack canoe. It is frigging Ugly to watch

 

[stripperguy]

MDB paddles a pack boat, I paddle a high seat solo.
She uses a kayak paddle, I use a 48" bent shaft.
As Turtle says, getting in and out can be cumbersome, it certainly is for My Darling Bride, not so for me and my high seat.
Also, if you're going to be paddling in cold weather and/or cold water, a pack boat will be colder on your butt and a wetter ride...I don't care how good your drip rings and technique are, a kayak paddle in a pack boat will get you and your gear wet.

If you think you'll be breaching many beaver dams, high seating is an advantage, especially so if the seat is pedestal mounted.
Lastly, a high seat solo will give you more varied leg positions, something to think about if you plan to spend 10 hours a day paddling.
I would get into the weight savings of a pack boat (and its lower sheer) over a high seat solo, but it sounds like you're a big enough guy that 10 lbs won't make too much difference.

 

[Cruiser]

There may be a storm of comments about single versus double paddle, but I use a double paddle pretty much exclusively for my solo (Freedom Solo 16'3") with a regular seat. I am also convinced that a longer boat is a better choice for tripping as it just seems to cruise along better. I did buy a double made for the purpose (and longer than most kayak paddles) and the stroke you use for a canoe is not the same as for a kayak.

Initially the double and single blades were swapped back and forth to evaluate what was best for my own use.
I find:
- the double blade is less tiring
- seems to be much more efficient
- definitely better for waves and wind
- for your tripping purposes, I would suggest for general control there is no significant difference in either blade type for the easy water you are looking at, there will be advantages, on both sides, in certain situations. If the wind and weather pickup, the double has a distinct advantage IMO

Your comment about swapping back and forth between single and double in a low seat scenario, not being done .... I suspect that has more to do with the paddlers decision to use either the single and double as a preference. Once you decide you like the single, or you like the double best ... you aren't likely to pickup the one you don't like much.

One thing i did do after i built my boat was to add a set of foot braces, as far as I am concerned you should consider those as mandatory on a solo boat. The difference they make really has to be experienced to be appreciated.

Trying the boats/gear out is definitely the best idea .... you can read only so much, then you need to go try the gear to see if it fits you, sometimes what you read lines up ... sometimes not so much, in the end it is what feels right to you. I was inspired to look at replacing my PFD by a recent thread in this forum, I checked with the local store to make sure they had the PFD I thought I wanted. After trying it on, I didn't like it, nor the next ...nor the next one .... I wrote down the name of the one I really did like (free shipping) and went home to check out what mine was ..... what i liked in the store was what I had at home and wasn't mentioned anywhere in the thread.

Brian

 

[Guest]

that's funny yellowcanoe! One kayaker I paddle just rolls over and falls out in tough take outs. Single vs double blade paddle is a separate unrelated issue. You can use either
in both. I use a double often in my high seat solo. I find I can get even better power from a high seat kneeling than from the floor. A single is more fun though. I bring both. My Colden Flashfire with a high seat weighs 25#. A savage river illusion or Slipstream Impulse under 20# with a high seat. Savage river Wee Lassie under 15# with a high seat. The ability to switch positions is huge for me. When recently paddling the length of Little Tupper my envious kayaker partner said I switched positions at least 10 times.

 

[frozentripper]

Age-old question... do you want them built for speed or comfort? For me comfort really counts and the points made earlier are real. So high seating, ability to change positions from kneeling to sitting, stretching out, easy entry/exit, and relaxed single blading work best over the long run.

Even lying down in the bottom of the canoe at times...

 

[yellowcanoe]

Curiously cold butt has never been an issue. There is a dead air space under the RapidFires low seat. So if you went pack canoe the Swift seats are similar
Not noticed any cold on Lake Superior or the Gulf of Maine where the hot water tap does not work.

 

[jm0278]

I wanted to be sure to thank everyone for their responses to this topic. As with my earlier Starting From Scratch post, I have again learned a lot and particularly on this topic, had a key assumption dispelled. I am now very open to either style of seat whereas a month ago I was definitely predisposed to pack-boat style seating -- the ability to change position occasionally with the high style seat is very appealing.

I intend to eventually acquire both styles of paddle, but I'll start with a standard single-blade canoe paddle, probably a Grey Owl Voyageur or Pathfinder, for two reasons. The first reason is simply financial. The canoe paddle simply costs a lot less than the kayak style paddle I'm favoring (a Werner bent shaft in carbon ~ $400 U.S). The second reason is I really want to learn how to paddle properly with a canoe paddle. On the other hand, some posts in this topic have made good points about the benefits of having a double-bladed paddle, especially when heading upwind. I've also learned that there are parks where a spare paddle is a legal mandate so if I've got to have two paddles anyway, I may as well have the flexibility that comes from both styles.

Thanks again.

Jim

P.S. Cruiser, with regards to foot braces, I'll be sure the new boat has them. I remember how much they helped from my old kayak days.

 

[Cruiser]

Jim,

You mentioned Grey owl, this is the paddle I ended up buying:

http://greyowlpaddles.com/project/tempest/

I called Grey Owl to ask about longer versions, they said they have them to 250 cm and would also be happy to make one up to 290 cm. The factory is about an hour from me, so I arranged to visit and they brought out half a dozen for me to pick what I wanted. In colder weather that wood feels a lot warmer than the composites I have used. Just a thought and also to point out that you are likely looking for a longer double, than would normally be stocked.

Brian

 

[Guest]

For a double paddle in my kneeling solos I use a 250cm bending branches Navigator and like it as much as I can like a Double. For a single blade I have settled on bending Branches expresso plus -straight-a great value for the money.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I never went longer. 230 works fine. I have a longer Aleut paddle of wood and it is tiring due to the swing weight.
And the composite shaft of my Sea Wind and SL tour are warm like wood. Aluminium of course is the pits and cold
After a day of paddling with a composite everything else feels like a club

 

[jm0278]

I never went longer. 230 works fine.

Determining the length of the double is one of many remaining mysteries to be solved. I'm hoping to nail it down while I'm testing the boats.

But I did find a formula for the canoe paddle that enabled me to measure here at home and determine a 54" or 56" length for my single blade.

 

[yellowcanoe]

No magic formula. Shaft length is all that matters. You can get that by being in a boat and hold the top at the highest point your hand would be and measure the length to where it's wet. The sticking point is you need a boat.
Best estimate go longer of your two choices.
I have lots of paddles Sonetines I use a 60 inch paddle. It's got a 26 inch shaft. It's for Canadian Style where the boat gunwale is at the water surface
I've got a 72 inch long beaver tail for standing its got a 46 inch long shaft. But it's usable sitting as the grip is a variable grip

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

"Low" and "high" seating don't have any absolute meaning to me, so I can only treat them as relative concepts. The seats in all my solo canoes are set at a height such that I can either sit or kneel with comfort and balance. This, for me, is a slat seat whose front edge is about nine inches off the bottom or a pedestal about that same height.

I think you have a good overall grasp of paddle physics, but I'll nitpick your assumptions since that's what you asked for.

"Low seating lowers the center of gravity"
Definitely.

"but at the cost of having less control over the boat, especially versus a kneeling posture."
Depends on how low "low" is. Theoretically, I'll give a slight yes. But not in my boats.

"High seating with a good quality single blade paddle is less tiring than a kayak paddle over a multi-day trip."
I'd say so, but kayakers (= double bladers) might disagree. However, I don't think the height of the seat or the "quality" of the single paddle is what makes the tiring difference. Rather, it's the weight, length and blade shape of the single paddle.

"Low seating with a kayak paddle is significantly better for a solo paddler going into the wind"
I wouldn't say "significantly" if the single blade paddler is skilled at high stroke rate hit & switch paddling with light bent shaft paddle. In such a case I'd say the difference would be marginal, and that difference is not important to me even though I'm not an expert hit & switcher.

"High seating, especially when kneeling, makes the boat much more maneuverable."
This seems to be a restatement, in the converse, of your first assumption. My answer is conversely the same: it depends on how high "high" is; there's a slight theoretical yes; but not in my boats where I position my seats.

"The fore and aft position of a high seat in the canoe effectively precludes being able to sit down in the boat because it would throw the balance of the boat out of whack."
I don't understand this statement and can't picture what you mean. All I can say, yet again, is that, unless you are getting a sit-on-bottom pack canoe, you can in most solo canoes position a seat height so that it is both kneel-able and sit-able. The fore-aft position of the seat is a different issue.

"Low seating pretty much requires a kayak style paddle and high seating effectively requires a single blade paddle"
I disagree with both assertions, especially the second. You can single blade even a SOB hull with a short paddle, although most SOB paddlers wouldn't do so. You can definitely use a double paddle in any canoe, on any height seat, and from either the sitting or kneeling position. When I paddled canoes with a double blade as a novice 40 years ago, it was always from the kneeling position. Seat height may affect ideal double paddle length slightly, but hull width is the more significant determinant.

If I were you, I'd make sure I get a hull shape that's amenable to both sitting and kneeling. Then, I'd get a webbed seat shape that's amenable to both kneeling and sitting. Then, I'd position that seat at a height that's amenable to both kneeling and sitting, which may take some modest experimentation.

Then, I'd buy two single blade paddles, one straight shaft and one bent shaft, both properly sized.

Then, I'd spend at least 200 hours practicing the various basic single-sided correction strokes: J stroke, C stroke, pitch stroke, Canadian stroke, and palm-rolled Indian stroke. Simultaneously, I'd spend at least 100 hours practicing hit & switch paddling. All these should be practiced in wind, waves, and with both hands -- that is, both righty and lefty. Get instruction if there's a qualified teacher near you. That can cut significant time off your training.

Finally, I would NOT purchase or use any double paddle during your single blade training. You can't learn to bicycle properly if you switch to a motorcycle every time you come to a hill. After you become a skilled single blader with all strokes in all conditions, you can then decide whether you want to include a double blade in your arsenal . . . as a matter of discretionary choice rather than as a crutch.

 

[Guest]

Good stuff Glenn. My 2 cents. Learning to paddle with a single blade takes more time, but it's worth it, I started with a double and learned to single blade. I don't use a bent because I do a lot of in water recovery's with a palm roll. I use a double only when my shoulder issues pain me. I just got back from a windy lake trip and, yes I could develop more power into the wind with my double, I could keep the canoe straight much better with a single if the wind was quartering at all. I personally thing the swift solo seat is the pest for sitting and kneeling due to it's unique shape.. I have put them in all my solos. Enjoy the solo canoe learning journey-it never ends.

 

[jm0278]

Turtle,

Old adage about learning to sail: You can learn to sail in an afternoon, but you spend the rest of your life learning to do it well.

Glenn,

Thanks for the detailed response. By "low seat", I meant sit-on-the-hull pack-boat style seating. "High seat" was for a standard canoe-style seat.

I found your recommendation to acquire a bent shaft paddle very intriguing. I've read that a bent shaft is more efficient going forward, but it's not as good for maneuvering. I was thinking I'd add a bent shaft later on along with one or more "animal tail" style paddles. Your recommendation to start off buying a bent shaft suggests there's more difference between a straight and bent shaft paddle than I imagined. I have also assumed that I need at least a modest amount of experience paddling in order to properly appreciate the different styles of paddles. As for not purchasing a double blade paddle right at the start, no worries there -- I suspect the boat and required accessories are going to consume all my available funds.

I have been reading the book Paddle Your Own Canoe by the McGuffins and it has provided good instructions for the basic strokes, but not the pitch stroke, palm-rolled Indian, or hit and switch. I haven't finished the book yet, so those may be buried somewhere near the back. But with regards to hit and switch, I have gotten the impression from the book that I should just stick with paddling on my strong side and cross-paddle as needed. I plan to evaluate that assumption after I've gotten a boat and can be out there, but there is the risk of unintentionally cementing a bad habit.


Jim