Bell StarFire rebuild. Lots of questions and hopfully a few answers.

[cflcanoe]

On the Fourth of July found a Bell on Craigslist about 95 minutes away. Person that was selling did not know much about it over the phone a was kind of wary of asking to many questions and the price going up. So I left in a hurry to beat any one else to it thinking some one had just added a middle seat to a Mourning Star. When we arrived and were able to see the canoe in person it turned out to be a Starfire white gold with aluminum gunwales. And most of the wood needing replacing. It has one long scratch that is not through the gel coat and a small star burst crack well above the water line. Gel coat and aluminum gunwales will need a lot of cleaning. Well the price was right so we brought it home even though we do not know if it will fit us.

Has any one tried a Starfire as a solo or a tandem? I am 220 pounds at 6 foot and the wife is 105 pounds at 5 foot 1 inch. She has a long torso. Trying to figure out if I wish to keep the center seat. Measured the width tonight at the center and it is 31 inches and my Mohawk solo 14 is 30 so maybe I can solo this.

What is the best way to clean aluminum gunwales without putting a shine on them? Shiny metal things are bad in Florida sun. Love wood gunwales for this reason.

As to the gel coat will start with a magic eraser but may need something more. Canoe has been siting under plastic tent for years. The dirt seems to be ingrained. Planing to try penetrol on the gel-coat when done. Any advise on cleaning the gel-coat? Thought there were a couple of threads on this but for some reason can not find the correct search terms.

How would walnut carry handles and thwarts look with aluminum gunwales? Or maybe a different wood. Trying to restrain myself from putting on wood gunwales.

One of the end caps is bad and was wondering if any one has tried the new plastic end caps from Northstar on a Bell. Any other ideas for end caps?

Will try to get better pictures tomorrow. Just figured out when it was almost dark how to get pictures I can post out of my camera.

 

[Guest]

A great boat for one big person or a small solo pair. Some freestyle paddlers perform in them both solo and tandem. Colden canoe currently makes that model. It is the largest canoe in the "Fireboat series". Flashfire, Wildfire, Starfire--all currently manufactured by Colden.

 

[Will Derness]

Gel coat and aluminum gunwales will need a lot of cleaning. Well the price was right so we brought it home even though we do not know if it will fit us.

What is the best way to clean aluminum gunwales without putting a shine on them? Shiny metal things are bad in Florida sun. Love wood gunwales for this reason.

As to the gel coat will start with a magic eraser but may need something more. Canoe has been siting under plastic tent for years. The dirt seems to be ingrained. Planing to try penetrol on the gel-coat when done. Any advise on cleaning the gel-coat? Thought there were a couple of threads on this but for some reason can not find the correct search terms.

This thread may help you. I rehabbed a gel coated, aluminum gunnel Swift several years ago. You may want to closely examine the rivets on the aluminum gunnels. Salt marine environments can be tough on metals

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...ussions/diy/36377-summary-swift-otter-rebuild

 

[Guest]

Great find.

15 feet long x 34 inch max beam, 30 inch gunwales. 3 inch symmetrical rocker at each end. The old Bell catalogs list it at 52 lbs in WhiteGold.

Other Bell catalog info/specs:
19 inch bow, 18 inch stern, 13 ½ inch midships
Capacity: 6 inch freeboard 800 lbs
Optimum load range: 250 – 450 lbs
Displacement: 4 inch waterline, 370 lbs. 3 inch WL, 260 lbs, 2 inch WL 160 lbs

BTW, from Bell catalog: “Outfitted as a single seat solo for larger paddlers saves eight pounds”. That is what I would do as a big-boy solo. 44 lbs sounds awfully nice.

I have used aluminum cleaner on old AL gunwales. The (still ¾’ers full) bottle I have is “Burnishine Aluminum Brightener”. It cleaned off the oxidation and discoloration, but didn’t actually make the gunwales shiny. If anything the result was kind of a near matte finish; although the directions say “Wipe on and rinse off” those AL gunwales were stubborn grungy as heck and I used some gentle Scotch-Brite pad action with the Burnishine to get them clean.

There are marine waxes for aluminum, which would help prevent further salt water oxidation once the gunwales are clean.

I think nicely shaped and varnished wood carry handles look fine with aluminum gunwales, and I hate leaving the opportunity for someone to "help" me move a canoe by grabbing the flimsy little deck plate. Carry handles with those dinkywinky deck caps also provide a better (wider) place to store the painter line.

You might be able to find a replacement end cap from Northstar, or even Wenonah, but they are stupid pricey for a wee piece of plastic, and need to fit the gunwale angle < and the layout angle at the stem. And, most importantly the outwale profile needs to match the interior profile of the deck cap for a snug gap-less fit.

I&#146;m not sure how to assure a replacement end cap fits that precisely. If you have an outfitter with a decent stock of composite canoes maybe drill off the old end cap, pay them a visit and try to match that layout angle and outwale edge profile.

If the end cap is a little too wide angled a V you can hit it with a heat gun and bend it into a bit of an arch to reduce the width.

Great find.

EDIT: About the “layout angle”; canoe stems can project outwards \, or be vertical |, or recurved /. If that angle on the end cap or deck plate matches the stem shape on the canoe it fits and look much better.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Yes on the StarFire as solo and tandem. It's too big for me solo. Tall guys like it solo.
It's got 2.5 inches symmetrical rocker and Is a great teaching tool for getting stern strokes precisely
It is a great Juniper boat
Before meddling with the seat paddle with your wife. You may have to move her seat forward
Marc Ornstein makes composite deck plates for the Fires

 

[cflcanoe]

Thanks every one for the information so far.

Mike McCrea Trying to find the "Burnishine Aluminum Brightener" locally. Looks like an Amazon buy. But looks good.

yellow canoe I assume you mean Marc Ornstein of http://www.dogpaddlecanoe.com. Right now until we find out how the rest of the canoe turns out $80.00 end caps are on hold. Do not know if it will work on this type of plastic but thinking of plastic wielding.

Will Derness that was on of the threads I remembered but cold not find. Robbin had one also I think that I am looking for also.

My normal suppliers for ash are out of stock. Went to an used / reclaimed / antique lumber store. Well the owner said he had two 50 to 75 year old unused smaller pieces. Did not look quite right from the end grain and the rough cut of the surface was so bad you could not see much of the wood grain. Soon as I ran them through the surface planer I knew. White oak. Will be making practice pieces out of white oak to serve as holders until the normal local sources come up with some ash. Wish I had easy access to the local sawmills in northeast. Shipping is most often not cost effective on rough lumber. One of my normal suppliers says he will make sure his next truck load has some ash.

Removed the rear seat this afternoon. The seat hangers are almost rotted completely away next to the aluminum gunwales. The strange thing is they are almost an exact match for the seat hangers from my Northstar that were removed for shorter ones I made to use with curved seats. So will have them to use as a pattern. Will not use the ones from the Northstar. They are almost sacred and may be put back into the Northstar with the original seats.

Usually I turn the seats over or just cut out the cane and leave in the spline when replacing the cane with webbing. The what is left of the spline has fallen out of the grove in the wood and the seat can not be turned over as the seat shape keeps this from being done. Any ideas on filling the grove?

 

[Guest]

Thanks every one for the information so far.

Mike McCrea Trying to find the "Burnishine Aluminum Brightener" locally. Looks like an Amazon buy. But looks good.

yellow canoe I assume you mean Marc Ornstein of http://www.dogpaddlecanoe.com. Right now until we find out how the rest of the canoe turns out $80.00 end caps are on hold. Do not know if it will work on this type of plastic but thinking of plastic wielding.

I picked up the Burnishine years ago at a West Marine and IIRC there were several similar aluminum cleaner products on the shelf. It’s a pint bottle, which was wayyyyy more than needed for one set of aluminum gunwales.

$80 for end caps? Even if that is for a pair that’s a bit ca-ching. If that is for a pair I guess it is what the market will bear; I think the last set of Wenonah end caps I bought were $15 each, and the big vinyl deck plates a la Old Town or Mad River were closer to $30 each.

One DIY possibility would be to try using Kydex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d9YZ9ljOkQ

A deck cap shape would be a lot simpler than a holster.

 

[BWCA66]

Nothing wrong with white oak for marine use, a lot of people use it and it holds up very well. Just make sure it's white not red. No matter how much you clean up and shine up those aluminum gunnels they will never look as good as a nice set of wood gunnels, you should just give in, you know you want to...................

 

[yellowcanoe]

Marc doesn't use plastic. They are AFAIK carbon fiber

 

[Guest]

Marc doesn't use plastic. They are AFAIK carbon fiber

A mold and carbon fiber would explain the price.

 

[Guest]

Right now until we find out how the rest of the canoe turns out $80.00 end caps are on hold. Do not know if it will work on this type of plastic but thinking of plastic wielding.

Looking at the canoe photo it appears that one end cap is largely intact and the other is there as well in some unknown condition.

I have had good success at repairing cracked or damaged end caps and deck plates using PC-7 epoxy to fill the voids. PC-7 is a 2 part epoxy paste with the mixed consistence of thick peanut butter. Once cured it is hard as a rock but still sandable (start shaping with a file if necessary)

https://www.pcepoxy.com/products/permanent-repair/pc-7-paste-epoxy/

I’d buy the PC-7 in the 8 ounce cans, not the smaller tubes. PC-7 keeps very well and is handy whenever you need a very thick non-runny epoxy.

When the cracks and voids are filled and fared just let it cure, mask off the hull and spray paint the caps black.

 

[Will Derness]

Trying to restrain myself from putting on wood gunwales.

A nice matte enamel paint could be a solution. The hardest part is the taping job; a wheeled shop stool really, really takes away a good part of the effort.

I chose brush/roll on over spray. Thought it might be more durable and touch ups are easier.

I went to my local paint store and they got me the right primer and paint for aluminum.

 

[cflcanoe]

Used up all my free time this past weekend working on this project. No time to post or take pictures. Then last night we had a lightening storm with two sides of rain. Better known as a toad strangler or a gully washer. No way was any work getting done in that or any internet being used. A house a neighborhood over was on fire from lightning. So posting a update now.

The two thwarts and stern seat hangers have their stain and second coat of finish as of tonight. The seat was an interesting project so far. No way could I drill the wholes through the gunwales, new seat hangers and seat while hitting the old holes in the seat. So the old holes were drilled out with one size larger bit to give the epoxy clean wood to adhere to. Machinable epoxy glue was used to fill the wholes. After the epoxy was dry the seat was sanded clean. Then the seat was temporarily clamped in place and the seat hangers marked to the wholes in the gunwales. A drill press was used to drill the bolt holes in the hangers. reassembled and clamped the seat assembly to the canoe and drilled the new seat holes. Stainless steal fender washers will be
used under the seat.

Now comes the exciting part and one of the answers in the title of this tread. Because of the way the Bell seats are shaped they can not just be turned over. to hide the channel for the spline that holds the cane. My usual method when the spline is missing is to fill the channel is to use nylon rope that has been impregnated with epoxy and then fill the rest of the grove with epoxy. Turning the seat over hides this. If the spline is intact Robin's method is used of just cutting out the cane then sanding down the spline so it is even with the rest of the seat. Experimented with a couple of different methods. Tried some black die for epoxy. It caused the epoxy not to dry and remain tacky on the white rope. Was going to try ordering different die on line when a thought came to me. Use black rope. Bought black parachute cord from Lowes. Epoxy did not melt it and became quit stiff. The black rope with clear epoxy looks good in the channel and should blend in with the black webbing.

PC-7 looks interesting. Going to have to pick some up to play with even if it dose not get used on this project.

Keeping the aluminum gunwales as their is a fifty percent chance this canoe will be sold on. People tend to like the no maintenance of the aluminum around here. That is also why the thwarts were stained and had finish put on them. Wife caught me staining the thwarts and asked what was I doing. She is well versed in my love of oiled wood and how I will oil any wood that I can get away with.

 

[Guest]

My usual method when the spline is missing is to fill the channel is to use nylon rope that has been impregnated with epoxy and then fill the rest of the grove with epoxy.
Experimented with a couple of different methods. Tried some black die for epoxy. It caused the epoxy not to dry and remain tacky on the white rope. Was going to try ordering different die on line when a thought came to me. Use black rope. Bought black parachute cord from Lowes. Epoxy did not melt it and became quit stiff. The black rope with clear epoxy looks good in the channel and should blend in with the black webbing.

I have never had an epoxy curing issue using pigment color agents. It does take only a teeny dab of pigment, and too much of that plasticizer might result in gummy epoxy. If the initial rope application started to actually melt maybe the rope material itself was incompatible.

PC-7 looks interesting. Going to have to pick some up to play with even if it dose not get used on this project.

I like PC-7 epoxy for some applications. It is thicker than JB Weld, has a much longer working time and since it is a putty it can be molded into shapes to fill odd voids. Laying it on with a popsicle stick and using a disposable glove (or wax paper) for molding it or compressing it into a crack works for me. Dried to a solid cure, filed/sanded and painted.

Keeping the aluminum gunwales as their is a fifty percent chance this canoe will be sold on. People tend to like the no maintenance of the aluminum around here. That is also why the thwarts were stained and had finish put on them. Wife caught me staining the thwarts and asked what was I doing. She is well versed in my love of oiled wood and how I will oil any wood that I can get away with.

I understand the allure of wood gunwales. But I do not have enough covered storage to own many wood gunwale canoes, and summer humidity here can be a beast. Still not as bad as some parts of Florida.

I have a friend who moved to north central Florida (Micanopy) with his fleet of canoes. Admittedly he is a no maintenance kinda guy, but within a few years the unattended wood gunwales on his canoes, which were stored under a pole barn out of the rain, started turning to mush.

Should you decide to Florida flip the StarFire aluminum gunwales all the way.

EDIT: I use plastic coffee can lids for mixing the A and B parts of PC-7 (or JB Weld or etc). I have plenty of empty cans with lids, but keep a box of just-lids for mixing putty or cutting into disposable squeegies. Handy things those.

And popsicle sticks. Actually “craft sticks”, more like a tongue depressor size/thickness. One to gob out some part A, another clean one to gob out some equal part B and use the two sticks to blend the PC-7 to a uniform grey. And then a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] clean tongue depressor to apply the putty.

 

[cflcanoe]

No Title

Finished one seat. While I prefer Robbins method of leaving the spline in or turning them over It dose not look bad.

 

[cflcanoe]

Went for a test spin this weekend after having reinstalled the seat, carry handles and thwarts. Phase one is done. After a couple weeks of yard work and making some closet furniture for the wife will be trying to get some more done.

10 yards of webbing did two seats with a little left over.

Has any one worked with kydex plastic as was suggested in an earlier reply for the end caps. Looking at what thickness to choose. 0.080 or 0.060? Keeping an eye out for a used toaster oven to warm it up in.

 

[Guest]

Has any one worked with kydex plastic as was suggested in an earlier reply for the end caps. Looking at what thickness to choose. 0.080 or 0.060? Keeping an eye out for a used toaster oven to warm it up in.

I have not, but friends have made some cunning stuff out of Kydex and while they are skilled at working with new materials they made it sound easy enough. If you have a go at creating replacement deck caps please post your discoveries.

BTW, did you try the PC-7 for deck cap repairs?

 

[pblanc]

I have used wood putty to fill in the spline on seat frames and it has worked fine. Nowadays, I would probably just fill it with G Flex epoxy which cures to a honey color which does not look bad on ash. Partially filling the chine with rope would reduce the epoxy expense.

Of course, another option is to just recane the seats which is not difficult. Cane and spline are readily available on-line. But the webbing is probably more durable in the long term.

I have fixed up synthetic deck plates that looked much worse than those. I use G Flex with some graphite powder mixed in to fill in all the divots. After sanding smooth and fair, mix up a little bit more of the G Flex graphite mix and brush it on the whole plate using a disposable foam brush to give a uniform glossy color. You don't even need to paint the caps afterwards, although you can.

 

[cflcanoe]

Mike McCree the project is on hold for a little while need to get a few other things done around here and worked a little overtime. Have not ordered any PC-7 for deck cap repairs yet....G Flex on top PC-7 under? The plastic is wanting to tear. Espicialy were the rivets go through it . Was going to buy online the inexpensive Kydex just to have around when I had time to play with it. Got to love the daily rains they keep everything growing and the swamps, creeks and rivers full. Just puts me behind on a lot of projects.

---

 

[pblanc]

If the deck caps are materially weak, I would drill out the rivets holding them on and reinforce the bottom of the deck plates with a layer of fiberglass cloth which can be wrapped around the inside of the portion that the rivets go through. G Flex epoxy will work for that purpose. I have no experience with PC-7 epoxy and don't know how well it would work for wetting out cloth.